Author Topic: Feedback from a fresh set of eyes  (Read 2356 times)

igetnorespect

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Feedback from a fresh set of eyes
« on: January 14, 2021, 03:20:17 am »

I think I'm half-way through my 1st playthrough (cleared Rail City and Foundry, explored almost everywhere), and here's my feedback.

I enjoy the game, I enjoy the difficulty of combat, I enjoy the setting. But it has a big imbalance in terms of info available to the player.

TLDR of Underrail's problems: the game is balanced around players reading the wiki, forums, and other out-of-game sources. It is unbalanced, and sometimes downright unfair, to normal players who only rely on the information provided in the game.

Example 1: infused leather
The Beast is the most recent quest I finished. My character is light-armored, so when Bernard started talking about Supersteel, I didn't care. I asked him to make one, not because I needed it, but because I thought it might start some new questline. It didn't. When he said it takes a few days, I left. On my way out, I passed by Leonie just to see if she had high-quality chempistol components, as a long shot (she never does). I then left Foundry, not planning to come back anytime soon.

So there's this new improved leather useful for light armored players available with her, but had I not read the wiki, I would never have known. The game doesn't mention it in-game like it did for Supersteel.

Am I supposed to mouse over vendor inventory every time I REvisit a merchant, just in case they have some unique blueprint that the game added silently after a quest? No. That's not fun. That's the very definition of tedium, the sort that would turn a 10/10 game into a sour experience.

Example 2: Core City quest lockout
I hadn't started Core City, mainly because I was worried about being locked out of things, having read that starting a quest (not even finishing, just accepting) with one company locks you out of all the others. Any normal RPG gamer tries to do as many quests as they can, as this is mainly how game developers feed prepared set pieces to the player. So they are likely to accept the quest from the first company they talk to. I looked it up on youtube, and the line starts with "Do you have any work available?" (not "Can I bind my soul to your company forever?"). At no point, in ANY of the dialog with the company representative, does the game indicate you're locking yourself out of every other oligarch questline. The poor gamer (playing blind) finds out when they leave, go into the next building, and talk to the receptionist.

If that had happened to me, I would have been upset by this unfairness. Imagine if you're a plumber, and get a job fixing someone's sink. Then you leave, and try to find another gig, and the government tells you you're not allowed to be a plumber for other people anymore. Only the original homeowner. You weren't warned about it, you didn't sign a contract, but it's being enforced. You'd think they were retarded, wouldn't you? Well that's what this design decision is.

Conclusion
I get that the game doesn't hand-hold the player. But the difference between "hard but fair" and "unfair" is whether the game provides the player with the tools and info to succeed on their own, like Dark Souls does. And Underrail frequently fails at that.

Btw, reading wikis IS hand-holding, so you can't claim some sort of "hardcore game" cred by not putting info organically in the game, instead leaving the work for people who edit the wiki.

If you insist the current game design approach is fine, then I suggest for your next game you embed the wiki into the game as an official in-game manual, updated along the game patches, and provide buttons to access and navigate it in-game. It would be bad design, but an improvement over what Underrail is like now, because then no one can 100% claim they felt cheated over info the game didn't give.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Feedback from a fresh set of eyes
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 07:02:13 pm »
The only tool you need to find the infused leather blueprint is your eye.  Merchant inventory in SGS changes after you return the drill parts, and you get two different notifications about that.  It shows you, right there, that when big things happen, there are other game-world effects.  After clearing out the Beast and essentially fixing all of Foundry's problems, plus one NPC mentioning that Leonie has some new stuff in inventory, you should really go take a look.

Your second point is a little stronger, but your first point is really weak.  It just boils down to you wanting the game to tell you both when and how things change so you don't have to find out for yourself.  The when is already there; you missed the how.  It's not really a very good argument and not a strong point.

There sure are some problems with the design; arguably more now than a few years ago.  But my first playthrough was blind, and I found infused leather all on my own because the game made it very clear that A) merchant inventory is RNG based and restocks intermittently so I should keep checking to find the best stuff and B) after I fixed the biggest problem in Foundry, I wanted to see if merchant inventories had done what SGS inventories did - improve.  Sure 'nuff.

igetnorespect

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Re: Feedback from a fresh set of eyes
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2021, 04:20:26 pm »
There's a difference between a unique blueprint only sold by Leonie after finishing a quest, and the generic blueprints that can appear in various merchant's stock due to RNG. I don't bother checking every merchant every visit, it's tedious. I check them on my 1st visit to get an idea of what they got, then it's on an as-needed basis unless the game gives me a good reason to check everything again.

I read all the text after the Beast, did a little victory lap around town, and don't recall anyone mentioning Leonie having new inventory. Do you recall who says it?

Even if you were right: why do I have to mouse over every item to get item info? That's so inefficient/tedious. Why don't unlearned blueprints have a different border from learned ones? Better yet, why don't unique/exclusive blueprints such as Infused Leather have a different icon color to spot them more easily? Same for those rare blue items. Taking it further, why can't I set a visual filter that says "highlight (electronics/crossbow/rifle/all crafting) parts with quality > 100", and when I talk to a merchant I spot them immediately?

To me, pointless tedium ruins the game experience. That's why I didn't catch Infused Leather. An extra 10 hours of gameplay where I'm just moving the mouse over merchant stock "just in case" is not my idea of fun. And I don't care about subjectivity, so I'm gonna say this: it shouldn't be fun to anyone, and it's wrong to find it acceptable.

cypherusuh

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Re: Feedback from a fresh set of eyes
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 02:41:41 pm »
Wait until you missed 2 very strong faction because there's unclear message on how to befriend them, especially if you're not a pacifist person.

KnightShade

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Re: Feedback from a fresh set of eyes
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2021, 04:55:13 pm »
The only tool you need to find the infused leather blueprint is your eye.  Merchant inventory in SGS changes after you return the drill parts, and you get two different notifications about that.  It shows you, right there, that when big things happen, there are other game-world effects.  After clearing out the Beast and essentially fixing all of Foundry's problems, plus one NPC mentioning that Leonie has some new stuff in inventory, you should really go take a look.

Your second point is a little stronger, but your first point is really weak.  It just boils down to you wanting the game to tell you both when and how things change so you don't have to find out for yourself.  The when is already there; you missed the how.  It's not really a very good argument and not a strong point.

I think igetnorespect's point was that supersteel from Bernard was deliberately made super-obvious while comparatively, the equivalent for light armor from Leonie was virtually silent but could easily have been made equivalently easy to know about and not miss.
The way one is communicated to the player stands out starkly from the other.

And his point about having improved filters for highlighting especially rare/valuable goods is an excellent one.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 05:04:14 pm by KnightShade »

Juri

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Re: Feedback from a fresh set of eyes
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2021, 12:12:55 pm »
"Imagine if you're a plumber, and get a job fixing someone's sink. Then you leave, and try to find another gig, and the government tells you you're not allowed to be a plumber for other people anymore. Only the original homeowner. You weren't warned about it, you didn't sign a contract, but it's being enforced. You'd think they were retarded, wouldn't you? Well that's what this design decision is."
More akin to working in two intelligence agencies from different countries, probably wouldn't be allowed to work for both
Imo game does more than enough to spell this out to the player, you missing it isn't the games fault.