Riot Gear

[hilf]

1.
Like tactical vest it comes in 2 variations: one with 15% resistance and +1 DT, one with unshackled resistance and no DT bonus. First variation just simply suck. You receive one less damage per hit if that damage is low enough to target DT instead of resistance. It can be helpful early game but as game progresses damage gets higher and higher and DT becomes less relevant in favor of DR. 15% of DR is crap, even if you add +50% vs melee it's still too low and easily topped by leather armors.
Tactical vests at least can make use of that +1 DT variation if you're maxing DT using ceramic plating.

That's why i'm going to ignore 15% DR/+1 DT variation of Riot Gear for the rest of this post.

2.
Riot Gear is in medium armor category because it's encumbrance is 20%. Tactical Vest, on the other hand, is in light category - it has only 10% encumbrance. But the DR/DT of Riot Gear is same as that of Tactical Vest. It feels wrong.
When comparing Riot Gear to various types of leather armors it is just worse, in both DR and DT. If we add 50% vs melee things are getting better but still not good enough. Best Riot Gear i found (in store, i couldn't loot it anywhere) had 6 DT and about 30% DR. Multiply this by 1.5 vs melee and you get 45%/9. Best leather armors i found had 10 DT and it wasn't a single instance. They had more DT vs anything that Riot Gear vs melee. That's crazy . Their DR wasn't that high but let's just do a comparison of armors i found:

Best Riot Gear vs melee:     30%/6  * 1.5  = 45%/9
Best Leather Armor vs melee: 35%/10 * 1.25 = 44%/12.5 (1.25 because it is Padded)

That was Rathound Leather. Pig would get higher DR and its DT would still top Riot Gear.
Not sure how DT would be rounded, but it is not important.

3.
Heavy metal armors have several resistances in addition to mechanical. It makes sense because you practically can't dodge with them so you need to absorb damage somehow.
However, Riot Gear doesn't get any extra resistances over light armor despite being medium. Sure, they don't limit your dodging abilities as much as metal armors but they could still use some extra resistances.

4.
Riot Gear's unique feature are shields. Mounting a shield adds lots of encumbrance and weight, bringing that armor closer to heavy category than medium. Armor with shield has about 50% encumbrance - that's absolutely enough to make dodging anything serious totally impractical. You need to rely on DR/DT and metal armors are clearly better at this. The biggest offender seems to be no bonus vs ranged attacks from shield.



What can be done?
I already made a thread about Detachable Riot Shield.
It would surely help, but it's just fixing a glitch rather than buffing.

So, what really can be done?

1.
Either remove 15% DR variation or make it have better DR and/or DT.

2.
Boost DR/DT at least to the level of leather armors. Take DR from Pig Leather and DT from Rathound, perhaps? Or maybe average. This way Riot Gear would be better than Padded Leather Armors vs melee.

3.
We are getting some lovely environmental hazards in next update. That's sweet. And it just happens Riot Gear could use resistances vs those hazards.
Every self respecting rioters use Molotov Cocktails. If you want to start a riots better bring some Molotovs or nobody will treat you seriously. This is why it makes sense to give anti-riot forces some fire protection. Bio protection could be explained by gas mask that's part of riot helmet, but that's hardly an unique feature in Underrail (:

4.
Give bonus vs ranged to riot shields. That's perfectly logical. You can keep that shield in front of you all the time since it's either fully transparent or has a transparent window to allow vision. Chance to block could even be higher than chance to block melee but maybe there are balance reasons against it.

Sorted by importance would be: 2, 4, 3, 1.



TLDR:
Raise DR/DT, add fire (and bio) DR/DT, make shields useful vs ranged, remove armors with 15% mechanical DR.

[hilf]

2.
Base enc. for Tactical vest is 10% (made with insulated vest), I'm absolutely positively sure about this. It gets 60% if Ceramic plates are installed, but that's optional component, just like shields and armors without them should also be an option. Maybe Tactical Vest without ceramics needs help too but that's different issue.
Tactical Vests can enjoy that sweet bonus from Nimble when Riot Gear can't - this is what puts it to medium category in my eyes.
Styg mentioned leather from merchant but that 35%/10 armor was from drop, not craft.

Riot gear w/ shield definitely has better mitigation against melee than leather armors, even considering the increased dodge penalty.

I'm not sure it's better than dodge, it's 30% chance to block and hammers will still go through it. But i must admit Riot Gear with shield work nicely vs melee (Rathounds in particular).

3.
Yeah, i know, but that's not my problem. My impression is the game follows this logic: "Heavier armors have more resistances ( and not just higher numbers) because they limit your ability to dodge". It makes sense to me.
Metal armors have resists to acid, fire, energy and component specific resistance such as cold, zap or more fire. And obviously mechanical too (:
Light armors have only mechanical and component specific resists.
Medium armors don't have anything extra over light armors despite limiting your ability to dodge/evade more. That's why i want to see one extra resist (or two ) on Medium armors.

4.
Well, Riot Gear has +100% DT vs bullets so it's not purely "anti-melee".
Ok, armor penalty can be lower with different material but that's still not enough to make dodge/evade an option. But maybe there is a problem with dodge/evade/THC that needs to be solved. My experience with the game tells me dodge/evasion could use a buff.

I just can't get over the fact that riot shield makes you actually more vulnerable to ranged attacks
We could at least get option to drop shield during combat but this would require detachable shields first.

[Styg]

Some quality feedback here. Keep it up guys.

Here are my thoughts on this.

First, regarding the leather armors. There's currently a problem that certain generated leather armors (such as rathound/pig ones) are generated from components of too high a quality. That is - you cannot find those components naturally occurring (if you disregard the messed up qualities in some shops, but that is being fixed) and yet they are used in generated loot to create these armors that are in a way more powerful than they should be.

I will be fixing this for the next update, but that's not the hearth of the issue since high level leathers will still be available in some form in the game (e.g. ancient rathound).


Secondly, the laminated fabric. Now that I look at it, it does indeed feel that the trade-off for the slightly higher DT is not worth the huge DR sacrifice, so I will be adjusting this - on both sides (DR and DT) while still keeping the laminated fabric a clear choice when it comes to pure bullet stopping capabilities.


Next, I'll probably tinker with increasing the melee defense bonus on riot gear, possibly upping it to 75%. I'm reluctant to increase it beyond that point as it might be a bit too much. We'll see.


I also like the idea of adding a component type specific to riot gear armor that will further distinguish it from the other armor types. It probably won't be a gas mask as I have other plans for it, though.

[hilf]

First, regarding the leather armors. There's currently a problem that certain generated leather armors (such as rathound/pig ones) are generated from components of too high a quality. That is - you cannot find those components naturally occurring (if you disregard the messed up qualities in some shops, but that is being fixed) and yet they are used in generated loot to create these armors that are in a way more powerful than they should be.

Do you want to limit quality of leather armors from loot/shops to the level of leather we can get from monsters? That sounds really bad, i hope i misunderstood something. It feels unfair to limit quality of some components while not doing the same for others (like metal plates).

[UnLimiTeD]

No, I think he meant that sometimes mobs drop leather armours based on higher level components than actually occur in the game, not that he'd nerf crafting.
I may be wrong, though.
As for Riot gear: How about Shock Shields or Strobe lights?
As for the Melee bonus, I'd say increasing it to 65% would already be sufficient. YMMV

[hilf]

Hmm. I spent some time comparing armors and testing stuff... Other than the laminated ballistic panels being crap, IMHO both tactical vest and riot gear are ok (especially crafted ones, best armor option for psionics by far)

But ... psionics can't use their favorite xbows if the use psi beetle shield

2.
I know the lightest possible tac vest has only 10% encumbrance but proper armor > nimble's secondary bonus. Try to look at the armor's potential as a whole instead of concentrating on getting double bonus from nimble.

You mean that tactical vest with ceramic plating will be better than vest without them but with full dodge/evasion capabilities? Maybe, i don't know.

I mentioned Nimble to show what options light armors give you. They allow you to make full use of dodge/evasion. You can even use galvanic/regenerative vest and still have 0% enc. Riot gear does not give you this option even if you use insulated vest.

I guess it's fair to discuss riot armor without shields and tactical vests without ceramic plating because the game has them. They appear in shops and as a loot (tac vests at least) so they should be viable option.

And back to riot gear - I'm sure the additional 30% chance to block on top of slightly lower dodge is definitely better than no block at all, and you can block even sledgehammer hits almost completely with a heavy shield.

Tungsten steel with quality of 89 gave me 34 point reduction. Quite good but it wont almost completely block 80+ damage from sledgehammer (even after counting DR of armor). And with Tungsten Shield dodge would suck. I'd rather have metal armor with it's high DR that works every time.

And before thinking of buffing dodge/evasion, remember that it would also affect your chance to hit enemies. Combat mechanics are bilateral in Underrail.

Fair point. Maybe dodge/evasion/THC work alright and combat encounter need tweaking. I felt i was getting hit too often.

[Styg]

First, regarding the leather armors. There's currently a problem that certain generated leather armors (such as rathound/pig ones) are generated from components of too high a quality. That is - you cannot find those components naturally occurring (if you disregard the messed up qualities in some shops, but that is being fixed) and yet they are used in generated loot to create these armors that are in a way more powerful than they should be.

Do you want to limit quality of leather armors from loot/shops to the level of leather we can get from monsters? That sounds really bad, i hope i misunderstood something. It feels unfair to limit quality of some components while not doing the same for others (like metal plates).

Yes, I do. And this is already the case with most components in crafting. But on the other hand I will also expand the variance and quality range of leathers available in the game, so this should not come as a nerf.

Currently, the generated leather armors are often made out of components that should not have that high of quality, e.g. you shouldn't be able to have Q100 pig leather armor as pigs simply don't drop leather that good. Nor should they since they are not high level monsters themselves. So pig leather armors will need to be restricted to the quality of the naturally occurring components, but on the other had new leather types will come in to fill that gap - either from further processing that leather type (e.g. reinforced pig leather) or as direct loot from new monsters.

Not all of these new leathers will be restricted to crafting-only (that is, they will appear in looted and sold armors as well), but the very best ones will be.

But, again, this has no bearing on the issue at hand which is how riot gear measures against other types of armor.

[hilf]

Wow, that's some really valuable Wall of Text, epeli. What about you make a new thread in General Discussion starting with that Wall of Text? Discussion about dodge/evasion/THC most definitely deserves it's own thread.
I'm impatient to answer to this but if we continue this discussion here riot gear issue will be overshadowed.

Otherwise, I would look into armor stats first and consider dodge/evasion a secondary concern.

And here's my problem - riot gear is not better armor than leather ones or tact vest if we ignore encumbrance. It's only better if:
you fight against melee
AND
you have shield
AND
you don't care about dodge (because shield and you almost certainly want galvanic or regenerative vestment, both of which have 30% enc.)
AND
there are no ranged enemies as well because shield does not help against them at all, it only slows you down.

And we should not forget very important problem with shields - they limit you to one handed weapons only (and no, SMGs are all two handed). That may not be a problem with some builds but you can't, for example, equip sniper rifle and pistol, and start battle with powerful alpha strike from big range, using sniper.

[hilf]

I actually lied to You, guys. Best riot gear i've seen had 28%/5. That 30%/6 armor was tactical vest looted in Core City. But riot gear of same quality would have same defenses.



My primary problem with riot gear is not that it has too low defense vs melee.
Riot gear has too low defense in general.

I compared it with leather armor vs melee to show how seriously low it's defense is. Even vs melee, it's supposed to specialize against, and with encumbrance twice/thrice as high it's not better (even slightly worse) than leather armors.

Melee is not the only type of attack (yeah, obvious, i know). Melee + bullets also aren't.
There are other forms of attack: crossbows, shrapnel, throwing knives, burrower spikes. And riot armor is too weak vs them IMHO.
I know armor can't specialize vs everything. But i think DT/DR (unspecialized) should go up with encumbrance, but it does not in case of riot gear (just compare it to tactical vest).



To illustrate a problem i'll use item names from Underrail + mechanics with simpler numbers.
Armors have 2 stats: defense and encumbrance. Higher defense is better, higher encumbrance is worse.

Our first armor is Leather Armor:
def 4, enc 2
That's our everyday, average light armor. Boring.

Next armor is Tactical Vest that is specialized vs bullets:
def 3, enc 2, +200% def vs bullets
It has 1 def less that Leather but to compensate it's got +200% vs bullets.

Let's move to something heavier. Another armor is, let's call it, Gladiator Armor (it's not in the game):
def 5, enc 3
That's our everyday, average medium armor.
If we compare it to Leather we'll notice 1 def more. But there's also 1 enc more to balance things out.

Now we want something like Gladiator Armor but specialized vs melee and bullets. Here comes Riot Gear:
def 4, enc 3, +100% def vs melee and +100% def bullets
Comparison of Riot to Gladiator is pretty similar to comparison of Tactival to Leather.

With assumption that 1 point of goodness = 1 def = -1 enc = +200% def vs specific attack type those 4 armors are balanced with each other.
All of those four armors score 2 points of goodness.


But Underrail gives us different Riot Gear. It gives us:
def 3, enc 3, +100% def vs melee and +100% def bullets
This armor scores only 1 point of goodness. That's not good.


Another thing is Underrail does not have regular, everyday, normal Medium Armor that we could compare Riot Gear to.


Styg is going to improve Riot Gear variant that focuses on DT and bullet stopping. That's cool.
My suggestion is to buff DR oriented variant to the level of Pig Leather, it's also DR focused. It would indirectly buff defense vs melee, which is good.

3.
I think the logic is more like this: armor bonuses and penalties are based on components in a somewhat logical fashion and there is no quota of how many resistances an armor should have. The only limit is what the blueprints can take.

If that was true, shouldn't Riot Gear have same encumbrance as Tactical Vest? Both are crafted from same components.

[UnLimiTeD]

He does make a good point, though; If you put the same components into two different blueprints, you'll get ~the same protection, but different encumbrance.
That normally only happens in systems where 'blueprints' have 'tech levels'.

[hilf]

Hmm. I spent some time comparing armors and testing stuff... Other than the laminated ballistic panels being crap, IMHO both tactical vest and riot gear are ok (especially crafted ones, best armor option for psionics by far)

But ... psionics can't use their favorite xbows if the use psi beetle shield

Then they should choose psi beetle armor plate (tactical vest) instead of shield

He he, i just understood what you were talking about.
Didn't know you can put Psi Carapace into tac vest's Armor Plate slot.