Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

[Eliasfrost]

You also discover quests, you get new equipment, you gain exp and you meet interesting characters. That's well enough reason to explore and then some.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, so to sum it up:
You get crafting Materials, but you don't craft.
You get Oddities, but you don't play with Oddities.
You get more chances at dropping something useful, but you don't expect that to ever happen no matter what.
Uhm... well, whatever works for you.   
Sides, what would we get if we got more items we could sell?
Even less than crafting, because we'd get money, and unlike crafting materials, that's guaranteed to be useless.
Yes, there's a gameplay problem in that sentence.
At least it's better than current AAA games where they hide flags somewhere in the hopes mindless zombies will grind for 5 hours to complete an achievement.

[Elhazzared]

You get crafting materials which you can buy anyway and money isn't a problem.

You get oddities but yeah I don't use the oddity system and I feel that many will not after the game release. It's a good system if you want passive play, it's  bad system if you want lots of combat.

You get more chances of droping something useful, which I can  get by going to town and just buying something a lot better. Grinding for hours and hours for marginal upgrades is hardly worth a player's time... At least in an RPG.

Indeed you'd get money which you consider useless. You can use money to buy whatever. We've already gone through the game giving the player way to much money. The problems of lack of resources in the early game has been addressed, now it's a question of making the mid and late game not give you as much money.

So then you'd go do sidequests and exploring because you would get stuff to craft and if it didn't drop, you can just buy it with the money from selling stuff. Going into exploration means finding more items, you can either get marginal upgrades or just sell stuff to buy what you need. And just doing the main quest line wouldn't likely give you enough money, that's why you have sidequests and exploration, to suplement what you lack. You don't need to do everything, but you'll at least have to do a good deal.

However one thing is true. This economic system will never allow for a proper solution to the too much money problem. Why? Because you limit what the merchants buy and in doing so then you must make sure that they pay more than enough to get you going... Let's face it, this economic system will never work properly. I can understand that Styg spent a lot of time creating this system, but it's better to scratch something that doesn't works than keep trying to adjust something that is just never going to work.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, if traders paying too much for the items they buy is a problem, he can just reduce how much they pay.
No need for them to accept all the junk that random adventurer found out there because no one ever bothered to pick it up in the last 20 years.
And they offer too much; Just buying what you need should not happen.
If players can get perfect gear by just buying it, you might as well replace half the game with a slot machine.

[Elhazzared]

Perhaps you don't realise the full scope of this so let me explain.

Option one, merchant pays too much, too much money floating around.

Option two, merchant pays just about enough for you to always have enough equipment. Not too much money floating around but still no reason to go exploring and doing sidequests.

Option three, merchant doesn't pays enough, it still doesn't matters if you go do sidequests and explore because you are still limited to the quantity that the merchant buys and as such you still won't have enough money.

There isn't a way around this because the problem lies with the limits of merchant buying.

When you have no limits in how much they buy, it's only a matter of adjusting prices, but when you limit how much stuff they buy, you create a whole new problem with the economic system.

[hilf]

Perhaps you don't realise the full scope of this so let me explain.

Option one, merchant pays too much, too much money floating around.

Option two, merchant pays just about enough for you to always have enough equipment. Not too much money floating around but still no reason to go exploring and doing sidequests.

Option three, merchant doesn't pays enough, it still doesn't matters if you go do sidequests and explore because you are still limited to the quantity that the merchant buys and as such you still won't have enough money.

There isn't a way around this because the problem lies with the limits of merchant buying.

When you have no limits in how much they buy, it's only a matter of adjusting prices, but when you limit how much stuff they buy, you create a whole new problem with the economic system.

My idea was to reduce amount of charons merchants pay and at the same time increase amount of items they buy. Oh, and increase carry capacity as well.

For example: merchants would pay 3 times less than they do now (which would be 1/6 of item's value), buy 3 times as much items and player's carry cap would be 3 times larger.
We would be able to get same amount of charons from merchants as before but it would require 3 times as much loot (that's why carry capacity was boosted).
It could make players not have enough $ just for following main quest, exploration and side quests would become necessary.

You get more chances of droping something useful, which I can  get by going to town and just buying something a lot better.

That's not really true. Here's an example:

In version 0.1.12, that was limited to Core City, weapon shop in Core City could sell items with up to 1410 durability. If you joined one of the oligarch families you could by items with up to 1500 durability (from Preatorian Security at least). By killing lvl 20 enemies you could loot stuff with as much as 1860 durability.
As we can see looted equipment is better than from store.

[UnLimiTeD]

Or you can just raise the chances of items being found out there that the merchants will buy, or preferable, that are useful.
Suddenly there's just enough money, or maybe a bit more, but only if you go exploring to find the rare stuff people actually want.

[Elhazzared]

Hilf, you method, while not whole solving the problem would certainly lessen it. The question still becomes. Why rely on contrived mechanics that ultimatly do not benefict the game in any way when there is a better way? Again I don't have a problem with a system being tested and if it works then fine, but if doesn't then either change it or use the formula that everyone else uses them. There is a very good reason that they use the formula everyone else does. Because it's good and it works, not to mention that no one came with a better one. Something new for the sake of being different isn't enough of a reason. Above all it should be good.

As for your example I cannot speak for your experience. Mine is, get to junkyard, get stuff much better than whatever you'll find on any quest around or exploring. With luck you can find something on the same level as what is available there... Also durabillity is not really much of a sign of superiority although better durabillity usually means better stats. But waht matters is the stats, durabillity, meh you can repair it anyway.

I cannot imagine what level enemies should normally be around core city but the equipment sold should match it or actually be slightly superior in the majority of cases.

Either way your earlier example would at least leasen the problem, not solve it but leasen it. I would still rather see no buying limits, lower prices and slightly higher carrying capacity (as well as the heavier items taking a huge hit to their weight).

Unlimited. Your proposition does not helps in any way. the problem is that you get to the gun merchant. Here I have 10 guns to sell. Sorry I only buy 3. What does it matter if the loot tends to be what merchant buys, the problem lies with them not buying enough to start with... Of course removing the limit of which type of item would also be good but it's just that there is no way to offload what you get from the main storyline alone becuase you sell what you can and you are left with tons of excess that the merchants should buy, but they just filled their quota.

[Eliasfrost]

Have you gotten past the drill part El? Because that's when the game opens up and really reward player behaviour that is not exploitative (not that it ever does); such as scavenging, exploring, crafting etc. I tend to think about the part before that as an introduction, sort of like how New Vegas funneled you around the map before hitting new Vegas were the game truly opens up. I've found that I only go to traders if I need healing items or if there's something I really, really need for crafting or repair kits. Because most useful items you get, you get from exploring the game, not exploiting its systems. I'm still not sure if this is a real game design problem or if it's the systems not lining up with your preferences.

[Elhazzared]

Of course not, the moment new areas were added past the junkyard so was introduced this new economy system which I cannot even understand how someone can tolareta playing it through.

But either way it does not changes anything does it? You still loot more than you can sell. Selling things becomes a chore with no end and the game pretty much seems to make you go on rails (no pun intended) by not making you deviate from the main storyline as you have no reason to do anything else except the bare minimum.

At least I know that if when I am doing only the storyline I cannot sell everything, then I wouldn't go and do anything else which would reward me in no way whatsoever and would in fact only waste my time.

I won't talk about new vegas or fallout 3. That thing is a heresy and bethesda should burn for ever having turned a great game into that atrocity.

[Eliasfrost]

But you do get rewarded for straying from the main path, you get equipment, material, quests, experience, interesting story-lines etc. It's not all about the loot you know.

[Elhazzared]

Equipment... Don't need, can buy it. In fact I'll just end up leaving it behind because of carry weights and vendor limits anyway.

Materials... Again, can just buy them and the more you stock the harder it is to have inventory space for more stuff.

Quests... Whose rewards are? Nothing because you cannot get any profit from the loot as the merchants are already spent from the main storyline.

Experience... Yes, I'll give you a point here if you do are feeling the difficulty and need a level or two to get back on track but I doubt it is really needed.

Interesting storylines... Again you do have a point here, but if I get nothing from it, even if I did it only once to know them, that's all there would be to it, no replay value with them as you already did it once and from there, given that there is no reward for doing it you won't need to do it again ever. Much like the GMS vault. You go there once, get nothing worth your trouble, speditures and time and you don't touch it again. Waste of time for both players and developers.

It is not all about the loot, but it's mostly about the loot. It's an RPG and as such it revolves around loot a lot. People play games because they enjoy playing games. Everytime they beat something tough or get rewarded for their work they get a dopamine release which gives them the pleasure. In these games the loot is what gives us the enjoyment, it's our reward, our dopamine release. Basicly the game is denying you that.

[Eliasfrost]

Equipment... Don't need, can buy it. In fact I'll just end up leaving it behind because of carry weights and vendor limits anyway.

Materials... Again, can just buy them and the more you stock the harder it is to have inventory space for more stuff.

This makes little sense to me, if you go out and explore and adventure, you will get better equipment. in fact, most equipment you found on your adventures are better than the stuff you can buy. The same goes for material.

Quests... Whose rewards are? Nothing because you cannot get any profit from the loot as the merchants are already spent from the main storyline.

The rewards are more interesting world information, unique items, money, experience.

Experience... Yes, I'll give you a point here if you do are feeling the difficulty and need a level or two to get back on track but I doubt it is really needed.

But you haven't gotten past the drill part, levels and skill increase is very much needed throughout the game.

Interesting storylines... Again you do have a point here, but if I get nothing from it, even if I did it only once to know them, that's all there would be to it, no replay value with them as you already did it once and from there, given that there is no reward for doing it you won't need to do it again ever. Much like the GMS vault. You go there once, get nothing worth your trouble, speditures and time and you don't touch it again. Waste of time for both players and developers.

That's depending on how you go about it, some of the stuff you do branch and can only be experience one way per playthrough.

It is not all about the loot, but it's mostly about the loot. It's an RPG and as such it revolves around loot a lot. People play games because they enjoy playing games. Everytime they beat something tough or get rewarded for their work they get a dopamine release which gives them the pleasure. In these games the loot is what gives us the enjoyment, it's our reward, our dopamine release. Basicly the game is denying you that.

That is actually not true. There are sub-genres of RPG that centre its gameplay around loot, most notably action RPGs. Traditional CRPGs* are less common to revolve around the stuff you get, it's mostly about world building, unraveling storylines and most importantly player choice in relation to the story and the world at large. Some RPG games have very little emphasis on loot such as The Witcher, Mass Effect, Planescape Torment amongst others. There are many different ways to make RPGs but that's a whole other discussion not really related to the topic at hand. Just wanted to clear things up a bit.

*With Traditional CRPGs I mean RPGs like Baldurs Gate, Fallout, Arcanum, Planescape Torment etc.

[Elhazzared]

While my experience is only up to junkyard, it is how it goes. Nothing I'll find in the junkyard or around it, even in Depot A is better than what is for sale in the junkyard. At best it will be of equal value but usually lower... Materials may actually differ but for equipment it is true. Still what use is there to find much higher materials which you just don't have the skill to use? By the time you have more than likely the vendors will have material at that quallity... Then again I may be talking out of my ass relative to what the vendors may have but my experience with material, usually when you find high waullity you just don't have the skills anyway, nor will have for many, many levels.

Interesting wourld informantion... Only need to do it once. Unique items. Well I'm sure the number of those are extremely limited and you'll only ever do those that will affect your class. One or two are hardly a measure of the vastness of the amount of quests and explorarion... Money, which is what compared to the loot left behind? Not to mention that we have more than enough money (again don't forget that my proposal isn't just to go back to the old system but to lower the value of items to also address this issue)... Experience. As far as I can tell and again I do know my experience is somewhat limited in comparison to the current content, you don't need to go out of the way to get XP. Even if you do you'll probably only do one or another which you know gives you a lot for as little trouble (time wasted) as possible.

I belive you that level and skill increasses are necessary, it was through the whole game till there, it shouldn't change as it goes forward. What I am saying is that you probably don't need to get off the beaten path to get enough skills and levels to go on.

Some of the stuff you do may branch, but odds are you do it the way it feels right to you and always do it that way. If you really get curious you can savescum to see different results and/or use wikia just to get to know. One playthrough is more than enough given that the players will not feel rewarded for doing it.

Lore is very important the first time around and only the first time around. Just like you play fallout 2 for the first time and get to explore all that cool story, after you beat it once, replayabillity does not comes from story but gameplay mechanics as you try different types of characters. How much replayabillity does Underrail begs? some possibly, but definitly without going into sidequests or exploring because it's just a huge waste of time. As for things like mass effect. This might be just me but I do not consider those things an RPG. There just isn't enough freedom and enough choice for it to ever quallify as an RPG. Anything that is not on a close level of things like fallout or arcanum do not quallify as true RPGs. At least not in my book... As such, all RPGs are loot driven.

[Eliasfrost]

I'm sorry El, you just don't know what you're talking about. Go play through the game then come back and talk. It's getting very annoying that you are making things up without the actual experience to back it up.