Author Topic: Pistol / Sniper build advice / comments  (Read 96 times)

laeski

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Pistol / Sniper build advice / comments
« on: Today at 07:11:20 am »
Hello!

I'd like to get some comments on the my build. Been pondering on a build that could clear the game all the way through to Heavy Duty.

Some background. My first playthrough was with a full PSI build, when they were OP. Second was a sword / throwing knife stealth build. Both of these were prior heavy duty dlc release. As a side note, was wondering if the sword / throwing knife would be viable for a new start all the way through to Heavy Duty, considering that int 10 is really damn good now for polymath and specialized feats.

Third is a chem pistol (acid) / crossbow. Aim was to entangle enemies in acid and then deadly snare them down. But, as it is very AP heavy build and requires preparation to entangle / trap enemies, it's not feeling that good. Having trouble with Expansion DLC's colossal crabs and other heavy armored enemies.

SO! My new plan was to start anew again, but this time go with pistols and sniper rifles. Idea is to utilize pistol mainly (bullet time, W&S free attack, pistol whip), and have sniper as backup. Pistol for close range, and sniper for round openers, if enemy is far away, but visible. Throwing for caltrops and grenades. Link to the build here (using the new builder from cannedbean29 for Heavy Duty feats): cannedbean29.github.io/UnderrailBuilderRemake/?HgUMAwMKAwrCoADCoAAAAADCoFVVAABkZGRkZAAAAAAAAADDpwExOgIXfsOSS8OoM1lbFsKzPlPinKQK4qSOBeKllAXip74F4r2EBd-8

I'd like comments on whether this would work for heavy duty (also comments on whether throwing knife build is viable for heavy duty)? I haven't ever even started Heavy Duty, so I'd like to go through it all with this. Difficulty is Dominating. There's still 130 points left, so most of them are going to Mercantile, and don't know about the rest.

Valor

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Re: Pistol / Sniper build advice / comments
« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:48:54 pm »
Generally you are better off with throwing gauntlet and using throwing knives to restore AP. But honestly it does not matter what you put into your offhand with firearm pistols build. They are that strong.

As for specifics.

Polymath feels like waste.
10 int for specialist .. its very strong feat sure. But power from it comes so late I generally prefer not to pick it and have easeir early/mid game (Which are the hardest on DOM).
I would take gunslinger earlier. In place of recklessness maybe?

laeski

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Re: Pistol / Sniper build advice / comments
« Reply #2 on: Today at 03:25:56 pm »
Generally you are better off with throwing gauntlet and using throwing knives to restore AP. But honestly it does not matter what you put into your offhand with firearm pistols build. They are that strong.

As for specifics.

Polymath feels like waste.
10 int for specialist .. its very strong feat sure. But power from it comes so late I generally prefer not to pick it and have easeir early/mid game (Which are the hardest on DOM).
I would take gunslinger earlier. In place of recklessness maybe?

Hmmmmm.... Seems like the planner isn't working properly with the specialist being moved around. Oh well... Had to go back to the old underrail.info and here I use "Expertise" as "Specialist" feat. underrail.info/build/?HgUMAwMKAwrCoADCoAAAAADCoFVVAABkZGRkZAAAAAAAAAABFyc6AlF-w5JLTzPDkxY-wrMxXuKkjgXiqLoF4r2EBd-8

I was planning on having W&S ASAP as my main, refurbish it at some point, and then craft a better one when possible. In the second slot, I was planning on using mainly sniper rifle, as it synergizes with sharpshooter feat. Pistol for close range, sniper for long range, if I haven't moved in turn, and for opening shots. Going to also take a 5 or 6 shell 25mm grenade launcher for some rapid AoE damange, as it requires 5 strength to use, and throwing glove would actually be good addition. Doesn't weigh really that much, but gives a lot.

Polymath is.... Well, it's a free 160 points to 1 skill. So, I swapped it out, so that I can take Aimed shot and Gunslinger at lvl 1. Specialized is something I want, cause the double specialization points is just too good. Took a pack rathound also, for extra space, switched point and rapid fire out to more throwing centric (fatal throw and remote surgeon, for AP recovery).  For the other 15 points in specialization, that is not visible in the link, I was thinking of adding the 5/5 in remote surgeon and maybe 10/10 for critical power, or ambush. Might be ambush, for more consistent crits.

So, how about it?
« Last Edit: Today at 03:38:42 pm by laeski »

Vokial

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Re: Pistol / Sniper build advice / comments
« Reply #3 on: Today at 04:49:00 pm »
I think it's not a good idea to waste two feat slots on grenades. Those are only meant to be used for crowd control and your pistol or sniper should do the damage. Even high-tier HE and Frag are not that powerful and you can only throw a single one in a turn anyway.
When I was planning out a pistol build, I invited Traps into the setup instead. They seemed so much better, since I could still toss any Flash or Molotov if needed and they seemed immensely better + Traps doesn't cost AP if you prepared the battlefield in advance while stealthed + you can put down as much as you want. They can even trigger each other, so multiple can go off. And you have all kinds, from Crawler poisoned BT, to Incendiary (guaranteed Fear + Ambush trigger) or you can just put 3 Frags together to guarantee the kill. Trap Expert is awesome and Quick Tinkering is super helpful against incoming melee's. And so does Kneecap Shot with the pistol. Therefore I would either focus on that (especially without PSI).

On the other hand, as I tuned the build, I realized, the sniper and the pistol make a really nice pair. Sharpshooter benefits both guns and so does all the CC ability. This led me to prioritize the rifle and just use the pistol as a sidearm. Mainly for two reasons: cheap Kneecap Shots and getting the Initiative bonus with Gunslinger. The sniper rifle simply outclassed the pistol when it came to dealing damage and soon I realized that devoting into this gun completely, would make me a lot more efficient as well.
See, the more you use the rifle, the better it becomes. In every scenario, it's just better to use that instead of anything else. It's a special weapon that is unique in a sense that it lowers your cooldowns when you kil something with it due to Shooting Spree. So to maximize the gains, you just need to drop enemies with Snipe and Aim Shot, throw a Molotov and mop up the rest with regular crits due to them being lid up and Ambush kicks in. You get AP refunds from Shooting Spree + Rapid Reloader and cooldown reduction with each kill, to use Snipe and Aim Shot more. Which again does the reductions for you - it's a cycle that can be boosted even further with Temporal Increments. So the sniper rifle is not just an opener sidearm - it should be your main instrument. Using any other weapon (even the pistol) will just break the cycle in battle, it won't benefit you in the ways mentioned above, thus never be the better option. I started out with a pistol, but came to the conclusion that full devotion to the rifle is the way to go. Once you experience it, fighting against waves of crowds will be your favorite thing due to just how satisfying it is. Every action has meaning, every bullet gives results. The one shot per enemy policy is something you can rely and plan with. It's awesome. Also you're nowhere near harms way, due to the superior range - often giving you several turns of advantage (sometimes even drop combat mode while falling back after restealth, then again that is even possbible with a Flashbang) instead of pistoling from point blank and getting hit next turn.

Here's the build:
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=10837.0
It is specialized to boosting AP and cooldown reduction with using Thermodynamic Destabilization to turn the tides immediately at the start. Can switch out Premeditation or maybe Advanced Psy Empathy to Polymath if you want due to the recent update that makes decent crafting require more skill points.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:01:24 pm by Vokial »

laeski

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Re: Pistol / Sniper build advice / comments
« Reply #4 on: Today at 05:57:25 pm »
I think it's not a good idea to waste two feat slots on grenades. Those are only meant to be used for crowd control and your pistol or sniper should do the damage. Even high-tier HE and Frag are not that powerful and you can only throw a single one in a turn anyway.
When I was planning out a pistol build, I invited Traps into the setup instead. They seemed so much better, since I could still toss any Flash or Molotov if needed and they seemed immensely better + Traps doesn't cost AP if you prepared the battlefield in advance while stealthed + you can put down as much as you want. They can even trigger each other, so multiple can go off. And you have all kinds, from Crawler poisoned BT, to Incendiary (guaranteed Fear + Ambush trigger) or you can just put 3 Frags together to guarantee the kill. Trap Expert is awesome and Quick Tinkering is super helpful against incoming melee's. And so does Kneecap Shot with the pistol. Therefore I would either focus on that (especially without PSI).

On the other hand, as I tuned the build, I realized, the sniper and the pistol make a really nice pair. Sharpshooter benefits both guns and so does all the CC ability. This led me to prioritize the rifle and just use the pistol as a sidearm. Mainly for two reasons: cheap Kneecap Shots and getting the Initiative bonus with Gunslinger. The sniper rifle simply outclassed the pistol when it came to dealing damage and soon I realized that devoting into this gun completely, would make me a lot more efficient as well.
See, the more you use the rifle, the better it becomes. In every scenario, it's just better to use that instead of anything else. It's a special weapon that is unique in a sense that it lowers your cooldowns when you kil something with it due to Shooting Spree. So to maximize the gains, you just need to drop enemies with Snipe and Aim Shot, throw a Molotov and mop up the rest with regular crits due to them being lid up and Ambush kicks in. You get AP refunds from Shooting Spree + Rapid Reloader and cooldown reduction with each kill, to use Snipe and Aim Shot more. Which again does the reductions for you - it's a cycle that can be boosted even further with Temporal Increments. So the sniper rifle is not just an opener sidearm - it should be your main instrument. Using any other weapon (even the pistol) will just break the cycle in battle, it won't benefit you in the ways mentioned above, thus never be the better option. I started out with a pistol, but came to the conclusion that full devotion to the rifle is the way to go. Once you experience it, fighting against waves of crowds will be your favorite thing due to just how satisfying it is. Every action has meaning, every bullet gives results. The one shot per enemy policy is something you can rely and plan with. It's awesome. Also you're nowhere near harms way, due to the superior range - often giving you several turns of advantage (sometimes even drop combat mode while falling back after restealth, then again that is even possbible with a Flashbang) instead of pistoling from point blank and getting hit next turn.

Here's the build:
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=10837.0
It is specialized to boosting AP and cooldown reduction with using Thermodynamic Destabilization to turn the tides immediately at the start. Can switch out Premeditation or maybe Advanced Psy Empathy to Polymath if you want due to the recent update that makes decent crafting require more skill points.

Hmm hmm.... You make valid point with the grenades. My idea of a build stopped at level 18 or 20. You can use the sniper as a tool with 14 dex and 10 perception, but it's gonna suffer some precision there, but not a huge amount, I think. Taking anatomically aware scope and rapid reloader for a Reaper model would be great. One shotting most things that get in the sights. Problem is, if a zerg happens, then it could cave in the pressure. So, to counter that, bullet time and a good sidearm is needed. With 14 dex and a .44 hammerer, With 14 dex, the base 32 AP goes down to 23, and if I calculate correctly, the rapid reloader for that gives -20% AP cost, so 18 or 19, depending if it takes floor or ceiling. Let's say 18, so from that activating bullet time gives you 9AP attacks and fatal throw gives back 18 points, so it'd be 68 AP, and from that we take the knife throw, which gives the pistol 68 - 10 (with knife thrower's glove and -AP with dex) = 58 AP of shooting. Not considering reloading, you'd get 58 / 9 = 6 shots off with that. That'd cover the close range quite well.

So, I don't really know if I'd be kneecapping myself with putting points in DEX rather than PER, but I like to have a balanced short and long range capabilities. Have to see, if it causes problems, and then just roll back with my saves, if it proves to be bad.

But, I'm gonna change the grenade feats to something better. Maybe snipe, and quick pockets (which is quite good value for what it is).

From grenades, I'm mainly going to use gas grenades (cryo, toxic) and incendiary for some good CC and debuffing. Throwing knives are going to be finishers for some extra AP. 25mm grenade launcher for some AoE stuff, if need be (not really sure, but grenade launchers are easy to use, even without the feats). Then the rifle and pistol. I don't really want to carry traps around that much, maybe some regular bear traps, so that I can block off some corridors potentially. They can be used without skill, and the enemy will just walk into them, if there's no way around them. Also, swapping the fatal throw health threshold specialization for both shooting spree specializations seems to be far better investment.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:59:47 pm by laeski »