Let's talk about new PSI System!

[Greep]

Major points of thread:

A)Talks of off-balance psi costs (t-Punch/pyro)
B)Justifications of nerf
C)Discussion of how this alters builds (drop a psi discipline?  Use full will? Tranquility or Psychosis?)
D)Flinging poo
E)Discussion of whether the psi amounts should be changed (Will affect psi pool? Psi reservoir to have duel energy/mana system rather than energy alone?)

[UnLimiTeD]

Ah, thank you.
Well, I'm all for a system that makes the ecomomy a little more relevant.

Also, Does anyone use Mental Subversion?
And what reason would there be to pick, say, 8 Will?

[Greep]

I used to use subversion but it's honestly one of those things that is better used against you than to use yourself.  TC just isn't that great for damage.  8 Will: none basically.  From what I tell the breakpoints for will area pretty much:

3: (good enough for most psi-secondary)
7: (lots of good feats, force user + stoicism)
10: LoC
13: Nearly completely irreesistable
13+ For the absolute pure psyker

[VaeliusNoctu]

@Epeli
I have 10 Willpower and 150 Effective Thought Control on my Character and my Mental Breakdown fails only against Characters like Eiden the leader from Chort.

[UnLimiTeD]

Will Subversion trigger if an NPC is attacked by it's copy? That's the only think I can imagine that might make that feat worth the feat point. And even then it's dubious...
Edit: How about a feat for deliberate not-Psi-users?
-50% Psi and regen, +25% resolve and +5% fortitude? Asking because there's no apparent reason not to use some prionics.
Tried building a mundane tank character, 10 strength,con, 4 will, 7 int, and I feel like investing in kinesis just because I can.... When going all heavy, I can pick the full set of Crafting, and at some point I don't see Chemistry as that raise-worthy. There's no reason to not invest in PSI. -.-

[Fenix]

Will should affect either your psi regen or psi pool. The current numbers are fine for high will (maybe the baseline for 10 will?), but lower will should have significantly lower pool, regen or both.

Yes, it make sense the more I think about it.

[Greep]

With full tank I generally get enough thought control to one shot dopplegangers simply because they're a pain to run from when you have 0 movement points.  And really there isn't exactly much else to spend the skills on, unless you absolutely have to have persuasion.

About feats for non-psi users.  There's is actually a consumable like that, mushroom brew, which is now in line with the other foods.  But.. not only is it only useful for a single build, light hammer, you also can actually use psi with it heh.

And I agree, it's so weird that heavy armor characters have the most freedom to spec into psi just for lack of other skills needed

[Greep]

As for 3 will being effective, I think this could be changed by having either

cryostasis be resisted by fortitude or

premeditation having a low will requirement (it's strange that it doesn't actually). 

Will affecting psi points won't do much unless 3 will puts you below 50 psi, and even then, there's neurology.  It's a step in the right direction sure, I'm just saying it's not going to stop 3 will being the most effective secondary will for any attribute intense builds.

Incidentally, as far as psi regeneration, I've thought about it and if one really wants to make psi boosters useful I think regeneratino would have to be something like:

Psi regen = max (0,(Will - 9 )*4)

So you only start with any regen at all if you're a full on psiker, and it's pitiful, requiring psi boosters in the beginning.  This is fine for psi secondaries, or focused psionics with some other tools like grenadier, as a psi booster and default psi makes for well over 150 psi points even with some nerfed max psi.  "pure" psionics would have to go full bore into Will, which I think is fair considering how wtf awesome psi is; and even going full will would require boosters, and full psi gear would be a godsens (beetle/head/neurology)

[Fenix]

And most importantly, regen should start at zero. Have it increase for each point of Will above 4. This would fix every single character with 3 will (and even 0 psi skills) using free psi abilities excessively.

Make sense for me... again. )
Right now I throw left and right Telepunch, and in 50% even stun someone, with 0 in all psi skills.

[UnLimiTeD]

Maybe have a PSI regen of 5* per turn if under 50%*, +1 for every point of will above 5*, the latter being tripled when above 50%*.

*The values would have to be balanced properly.

It would result in rather mundane chars having a very limited effective PSI pool that for most purposes doesn't regenerate in combat, while high PSI characters will have an interest in not "burning out".
Low Will chars would use PSI boosters to be able to use the better abilities at all, or repeatedly, while high will characters would use PSI boosters to sustain their powers during prolonged fights.
The above could also be reached by having a lower regen bonus per point of will and a feat that regenerates a % of the remaining PSI points, meaning you can easily sustain cheap abilities if that's all you use.
Sadly, the optimal solutions tend to be complex, and I suck at explaining.

[Loriac]

Maybe have a PSI regen of 5* per turn if under 50%*, +1 for every point of will above 5*, the latter being tripled when above 50%*.

*The values would have to be balanced properly.

It would result in rather mundane chars having a very limited effective PSI pool that for most purposes doesn't regenerate in combat, while high PSI characters will have an interest in not "burning out".
Low Will chars would use PSI boosters to be able to use the better abilities at all, or repeatedly, while high will characters would use PSI boosters to sustain their powers during prolonged fights.
The above could also be reached by having a lower regen bonus per point of will and a feat that regenerates a % of the remaining PSI points, meaning you can easily sustain cheap abilities if that's all you use.
Sadly, the optimal solutions tend to be complex, and I suck at explaining.

If that level of complexity is being considered, then I would suggest a reservoir system as probably a lot easier to understand.

The basic problem being fixed here, as I understand it, is throttling how much psi can be spent rapidly in combat.  Purely on that metric, 20psi per turn regen isn't really all that bad at any level of Willpower (3 all the way to 10).  What needs to be addressed however is the totally free psi regen this enables, particularly for low Will characters.

Keeping a psi total reservoir at the same level as the old psi pool (i.e. before the most recent changes) and then using the 100psi/20psi regen per turn to throttle how quickly you can burn your total psi pool fixes the free psi, because all psi characters would still need to use psi boosters to refill the reservoir.  Meanwhile, a Will 3 character would have quite a low psi pool, and be subject to all the limitations as they used to be.

[UnLimiTeD]

Maybe then just have each ability lower the PSI pool slightly, less if you have more will, and have PSI-boosters increase it again?

[Greep]

Hum, this is a tough topic.

I'm fairly sure Cryostasis is already resisted by Fortitude rather than Resolve, it's a physical effect rather than mental effect. Either way, that makes no significant difference on its effectiveness. The question is how easy it is to resist.

Giving Premeditation a Will requirement is an excellent idea, it might just be an oversight that it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure stasis cannot be resisted.  I've never seen it happen, and I max at 35 metathermics a lot.  I didn't really mean to specify fortitude so much as that it should resist at all.

[Mindless]

Each system has its advantages for the new psi-regen balance but we definetly need two things: Dependence on the level of char and on his Will ability. It's seems quite logical and right for me.

[UnLimiTeD]

I see no level to make it dependent on char level. Characters already gain feats and equipment and raise their skill levels. They will eventually raise their will as dedicated Psykers and thus gain a bonus.