Let's talk about new PSI System!

[Elhazzared]

Has it been that long already? Damn! I'm getting old!

[Greep]

Gas grenades are indeed awesome.  They're like the poor man's traps.

[hilf]

Gas grenades are indeed awesome.  They're like the poor man's traps.

Now there's a feat idea for throwing+traps! Throwing Traps - lets you arm traps in remote locations simply by throwing them there! (thrown traps are easier to detect)

Seriously though that would be silly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExSwGuQW7Q

[Mindless]

Grenades are not enough powerful? O__O
Are you f... serious?! Frag Grenades own everything for just 15 ap(!!!) that doesn't have good mechanical resistance.
And if you get "Three-Pointer" Feat all your enemies will be doomed =P

[Greep]

Really?  There is a pretty sharp decline in grenade damage when facing level level 20s (15s and lower get blown to bits, though).  I swear I'm lucky to get 200 damage or so when throwing a mark V on anything if they aren't stunned.

[Fenix]

I'll be honest here: The psi changes happened because a naked pure psionic with nothing but the 3 psi skills and maxed will could complete the entire game without ever taking any damage. You could easily keep all enemies out of action until you kill them, thus being effectively immortal. Yeah, it was kind of ridiculously overpowered. Since psionics always hit and maxed will pretty much guarantees your CC won't be resisted, there wasn't any room for random chance ruining your day either. With no risk at all, it was boring to play.

Completely agree. I love psikers, and want to have a fun from playing with that build.
No challenge?---> no fun.
Psyker must be nerfed to hell. )

[Elhazzared]

Well the debated problem of Psikers was always. They either take no damage or they just die. Psikers have no armor and no dodge/evasion. they have low amounts of health too. So unless their CC is god like to be able to survive they'll probably die in a hit or two of anything that attacks them.

[Greep]

"Psikers have no armor and no dodge/evasion. they have low amounts of health too"

I've never played a psiker like that -.-  They're actually the one class of playing style that used to benefit from having evasion, as LoC was the only way to survive with light armor before thick skull.  So all of my psikers were 9 str 9 con or 6 agility 10 con.

[Elhazzared]

And will 0 probably...

When I do a Psiker I get 10 will and i'll only ever raise will since I want max damage and no chance whatsoever for the enemy to be able to resist the stuns and whatnot.

The places where a Psiker more easily dumps stats tends to be strenght and constitution. You can get some agillity or dexterity (not really both unless it'sa minal bonus to each) and it probably never is a bad idea to get something like 7 perception + snooping to get all secrets and of course, perception is needed for the crossbow and those special bolts can save your life.

As for having evasion/dodge. I never have space for it at all. The 3 disciplines + stealth + lockpick and hacking + crossbows only leave you one option left. Usually I use the last one for persuasion.

Now some people don't care for lockpick and hacking, some won't even care for having a crossbow. That's alright, but I find that not having a backup weapon usually backfires spectacularly and of couse, I cannot pass the loot. I'd litereally go insane.

[Elhazzared]

Well epeli, if you're so smart then tell me how do you do a psiker with any kind of survivabillity at all bearing in mind that 10 will and always raise will.

the 3 psi disciplines

A secondary weapon

steath because you're not exactly in metal armor about to face tank anything.

lockpicking and hacking to grab all the loot.

[Greep]

Well, I meant more "tank" not "survive"   I once played without any fighting at all xD  No combat no psi for the lulz   It actually wasn't very fun, reloading a zillion times when bumping into mutant dogs kinda sucks xD  But it had it's moments like pickpocketing a live enemy for a key

Edit: but anyways.. I think we might have drifted off topic a wee bit

[Mindless]

Edit: but anyways.. I think we might have drifted off topic a wee bit

That's right. Eternal Battle of epeli vs Elhazzared xD

Completely agree. I love psikers, and want to have a fun from playing with that build.
No challenge?---> no fun.
Psyker must be nerfed to hell. )

They had enough challanges from the start =P (Hard time against robots, many skill points to place in - we talk about pure psi-builds, hard start, etc.)
It's the common rule of the Good RPG "Mages" - hard start, easy endgame. And now i became even easier to play with(for me).

Psikers have no armor and no dodge/evasion.

That's wrong. I have very good survivability with my Psionic Vest(only snipers and crits generally penetrates armor).

Really?  There is a pretty sharp decline in grenade damage when facing level level 20s (15s and lower get blown to bits, though).  I swear I'm lucky to get 200 damage or so when throwing a mark V on anything if they aren't stunned.

Is it bad? To damage pack of enemies for 200 damage? Even for 150? for 15 ap?

So all of my psikers were 9 str 9 con or 6 agility 10 con.

I think this is more a melee+psi build, that's not a pure psi-build(Psi-abilities as secondary like stuns, slows, etc.).

str 3
dex 4
agi 6
con 3
per 3
will 15
int 8

Terrible stat allocation, in my opinion =_=

effective skill levels:
hacking & lockpicking 100
mechanics ~120
electronics ~150
chemistry 20
biology 70
tailoring ~120
psi skills ~250
persuasion ~150

That's pretty ok) My skill-set is slightly different but...

[Greep]

Well I consider anything that ends up with at least 13 will and maxed triple psi a psiker xD  If it also bashes bots with a sledgehammer, whatever.

[Fenix]

They had enough challanges from the start =P (Hard time against robots, many skill points to place in - we talk about pure psi-builds, hard start, etc.)

You're kiddin me, good sir. Robots? The one grenades I picked up except flashbang was EMP.
You even don't need to buy grenades - you can find so many of them as you needed (and I think it's bad by design, player should feel shortage in equipment and weapon he can find, so he would be forced to buy and spent his bloody sharons).
Hard start? What, first hour? After that he is like steamroller.

I still think psi-disciplines should be more specialized, less universal.

[Elhazzared]

Well epili. If you can run with that and not take damage you must be incredibly good because with 5 str, 5 con, in fact mostly everything at 5 and 13 will while using a carrier vest (which is at least better than leather armor) I was getting owned time and time again in Depot A, savescumming a lot to get through it.

Attack them from outside vision range? Yeah right. No spell of mine even had the range to attack them from outside their visual range. Once I got in their visual range they moved almost into melee and that is at maximum ranges.

Let's talk about situations where you cannot do that. Sure you can try the stand around the corner, iniciate combat and move into LoS and start casting. The only problem is that you are not likelly to even kill a single enemy in the first round and more often than not you have 4+ enemies and only 2 CC abillities that you can throw in a single round, after that only 1 CC per round until electrokinesis is out of cooldown... Really I was only ever semi safe against humans when I LoC + bilocation them and then cast the force wall to prevent from being attacked while they died to the illusions. Even then if a sniper survived and could get a shot on me it would usually oneshot me anyway, even with 5 con, even with a carrier vest.

Now your build is definitly not up to spec against robot. You have one good spell, the rest are not that damaging. they can help but they won't do much and your spell has a cooldown. Sure you can use EMP grenades and savescum as much as you like until you start hitting and between the two of them, maybe it is enough, But you shouldn't have to relly on savescumming to get through a situation. If you have a crossbow with special bolts however, you are much safer.

So I need a secondary weapon and stealth makes a huge difference too to get the right engagement angle on the enemy.

Also you listed 11 different skills. While yes, eventually you'll stop needing to up some skills and can start getting other ones. At the begining and for possibly over half your leveling time you cannot do this so you are stuck for at least the first half of the game with 8 skill. 3 of them go into psi, 2 of them into loot related stuff and probably you want another weapon and sneak. In my experience it is needed.

So no, I don't think psi characters are easy mode, I've had far more success and easy gameplay with the character I had made that used assault and sniper rifles with grenades as a secondary weapon as well as being able to craft grenades... Yes, you could get mk5 easily back then, I realise this, but it's still going to be a lot easier to roll outthis way than it is with a psi character. The difference between the both of them was not small at all, it was abismal. my sniper I never really cared, I steamrolled everything without taking any damage. In fact the only time I died was when I got distracted and a sniper one shot me after the gang showdown in the junkyard. I wasn't expecting to be an enemy there, was unning around without stealth and it got the jump on me and oneshot me.