Let's talk about new PSI System!

[Greep]

Well.. you really don't need a high will with those numbers :O  Most of my non-"full psi" have will 3 and would be not affected so much   Plus I think will should have some effect on mana right?  It feels weird throwing 3 CCs with a Will 3 character.  a regen of 2 would change that or at least make me shoot up in battle.

As for affecting economy, I think it would simply because you'd need boosters in battle.  Trying to take on mutants with a lower will would definitely require boosters.  Very high will would be unaffected, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.  Very high perc generally never had to buy bullets in the beginning, or much ever.  We're talking what, 100 charons throughout junkyard?  Most of my money was spent crafting armor. 

Again, only newbies with very poor builds have big money issues, and why be hard on them?  Especially since you'd have to start over if you run out of money and don't have quests.  I'd honestly argue that maybe standard ammo should be cheaper.  Doesn't affect you or me, but maybe it would affect that guy who just started playing.

[Elhazzared]

So, unless this has changed I don't think 3 will characters are viable even for hybrid. Damage will be very low and CC will often not work. I remember trying it once and the results were that the stun was almost always resisted. So unless this has changed I don't see 3 will characters being viable as a hybrid if by hybrid you meand just get some "free CC".

As for the regeneration. The whole problem of the new psi system does not passes through the regeneration being to high. Maybe it should be half of what it is but the real problem is the cost of some abillities being far too high. As a psiker you need to have the abillity to spam out some spells before you run out of psi and it must not be limited to the cheap ones either.

As for the early economy. Really there is no such thing as an early economy problem anymore. Withthe starting money you buy some lockpicks, a couple bateries and a haxxor, add a grenade and that's all you need to get past the first mission as a non psiker. The starting bullets and the grenade is a guaranteed win. Just clear the first outposts normally (you even get a crossbow with some bolts if you need to swap weapons). The house where the guy is with the 2 rathounds is dealt with a grenade and the high number of rathounds before it is dealt with blowing up the barrel when they cluster near it. Once this mission is done you have a new better gun and money to spend on anything else you might need.

Let's face it. The old economy system was already gave you too much money, however it was better than the current one. Neither it had the problems of not being able to sell everything nor carrying stuff, but it also didn't gave you as much money. The current one will never be able to actually be balanced for reasons I've gone into already somewhere else. Since money is overly abundant and nothing is going to change reguarding this. You might as well throw out the costs as a balancing factor out the window.

As for early on Psi being more damaging than a gun. Erm, maybe? Once you give the watch to the old man you already got a submachinegun. I doubt anything in Psi you have will do as much as a burst... Also any non psiker build will allowyou spam any type of attacks as much as you like. Your guns aren't likelly to run out of ammo anytime soon. You can throw a variety of grenades. You can have utility things like nets, caltrops and whatnot. You can pretty much spam what you need. Even if you get a cooldown here and there, you still have other options that will do something similar. With Psi however, when you need to use a high cost psi abillity you don't really have alternatives.

If I was to balance out Psi abillities I'd say you need a pool probably twice as big if not more and then lower the psi regeneration. What does this means in terms of balancing? You can to a degree use more high cost psi abillities, but in long drawn out fights which tend to happen with psikers (remeber, good CC, but lower damage than other ways of going at it) you'll need to use boosters in order keep up with the spenditure.

[Gman]

Well it sounds a bit complicated, and tbh, should the early game really be difficult credit wise?  It's bad enough that new players tend to get stuck, as there is no replenishable source of credits.

A little biology and you can make psi-boosters out of mindshroom fluid.  Both are easy sells at any pharmacy, one of which is in SGS that usually buys a few of each.  The tunnels at the start of the game with the five outposts house a few, with two behind a agility-check mound of stones.  Another is Adrenal glands, constant source from rathounds, that make pricey adrenalin and then adrenalin shots that are easy to sell.  Even if I didn't make most of the combat drugs for use, they still serve a purpose from the start in selling and making relatively easy credits. 

15 biology I believe is all that is needed to distill Mindsrhooms, with the fluid selling for 100ish at the pharmacy. Easy.

Also, if you make your own repair kits, the return investment of them is usually 2-3 times the kits sell cost added to the repaired object. 

[Fenix]

How sweet! And where is my "good sir". =(

Lost in translation. )

Sorry, but i must decline your generous offer. (With ~15% hit chance with granade you either miss, or drop it into your feet OR with some luck and save-load you can eventually hit the target.)

Do it in narrow passage, where even if you're drop it on feet, AOE will hit the bot.

And how many psi-busters will you buy with your "start money" ?

With all you can find further - enough for all psi-beetles\bots, if you don't sling lightnings at every cave poppers, and use Quinton's crossbow at rathounds.

What build will have more hard times then pure psi-caster?

Hard start isn't actually a hard, if it lasts a HOUR.

Pistol+Grenades can be superior to the psi-caster build in many situations.

What a load of BSness. What - you kill rathound with 800 crit, and what?
CC+nuke+stunlock=PSI.

[Fenix]

then one approach would be to have a 'psi reservoir' that works like the old non-regenerating system.  Your current psi is refilled from that reservoir, at whatever rate is considered balanced (20 per round may be fine under this system).  However, when your reservoir runs out, you no longer get the top up each round.  Under this set up, psi boosters would work by first refilling your active psi (up to the max of 100 or 115 with appropriate headband) and then whatever was leftover would go to refill the reservoir.

it just was my idea.

Example:  psi max = 35 + Will*5; regen = Will*1.5

I like your approach too. I like that not investing in Will chars should spend boosters (money, resources) to get what Will-investing got for free.

[VaeliusNoctu]

Puh much to read here. With the actual Patch it is possible to play a nice game with that Character? Or is he bad skilled?

Stealth/Sniper and PSI (21):

5 STR

3 DEX

9 AGY

4 CON

10 PER

10 WIL

4 INT

i go for Gun (max), Throw (70), Evasion (max), Stealth (100),  Lock and Hacking (65), Mechanic (100), Tailoring (100), Chem (20), Bio (40), Electronics (30), Thought Control (104)

Aimed Shot, Doctor, Hit and Run, Opportunist, PSI Emathy, Recklessnes, Sprint, Interlooper

And if i must redone what would you suggest me for the same Build be Effective? A Stealth Sniper with a bit PSI Or maybe a Assault Gun Heavy Armor Build.

BTW is the game now Balanced enough for a Heavy Armor Melee Build? I mean a BIG FET Armor like Steel Armor and a BIG Hammer?^^

[Greep]

Game was always balanced for a (shock-) hammer build with agility for sprint and biology for jumping beans, even if it wasn't the best build   But yes, more specifically there is thick skull and heavyweight feats, specifically designed for that build.

But yeah your character is fine, the new psi stuff really only affects multi-disciplined psi players.  L&H is kinda low, though, yours is better off just choosing one rather than half assing both xD

[Greep]

- Resolve/fortitude is tested against your effective skill level, but they scale from level and attributes. Also NPCs don't have a natural bonus to them unlike to dodge and evasion. This could mean psionic CC is fairly unlike to be resisted even if you have 3 will, but I sure hope that's not the case.

Well elekinesis and stasis are irresistable, so there's 2 there

In my experience for everything else: psi is "semi-reliable" at synergized 3 will given opponents that are sensitive, somewhere in the 60-80% range.  I.e., don't go around t-punching anyone with a fat health bar or fearing a mindreader.  Thought control seems to be worse than t-punch as far as resisting.

[VaeliusNoctu]

Do the Patches changed how attributes work? Thats what i read and understud from underrail Wikki.

STR = affects melee damage and carry capacity
DEX = affects locks, thievery, throwing and initiative. It increases critical strike chance of melee attacks and reduces action point cost of unarmed and light weapons
AGY = affects dodge, evasion, initiative and movement points and stealth
CON = affects health and stamina and prevent or lessen the effects of poisons and diseases
PER = Hit chance with Ranged weapons and detected unvisible targets, hidden rooms
WIL = Hit chance for PSI effects and resist PSI effects
INZ= more Skillpoints every Level Up?

[VaeliusNoctu]

Cool Dex and Str hah so i dont must go for DEX in my next Sledgehammer Heavy Armor Build good to know. I Plan to make him Focus on STR (12),CON (10) and Agility (10) low PER(4),WIL(3),INT(4), DEX (3). No PSI and other weapons then a Mighty Hammer lol. So should the Stats after 25 i think.

[VaeliusNoctu]

Oh good you say that i forgot it yes so better DEX i think.

[Mindless]

Do it in narrow passage, where even if you're drop it on feet, AOE will hit the bot.

Okay this is some sort of "solution". I was partly wrong here but with this you can only stun one bot(with guarantee hit i mean), you need to have no electronics(this can/will hit you as well).
Which means this is not the same situation where you have good throwing skill.

With all you can find further - enough for all psi-beetles\bots, if you don't sling lightnings at every cave poppers, and use Quinton's crossbow at rathounds.

That's it! You need to use another weapon(with 0 skill, right?) to start with, you can't comfortably play from the beginning =P
And you can of course say that it will only last "a hour" or "I will punch these angry rathounds by my magnificent fists"...

What a load of BSness. What - you kill rathound with 800 crit, and what?
CC+nuke+stunlock=PSI.

OR you can kill heavy armored guy with this crit! or... Drednought but in 2 hits =(
And if you have 0 psi you are deadman!
And this discussion will never ends cuz you think that psionic user is superior to any other build(well you have said only about pistolet's build) in any situation.
I really can't see a battle where my gun's build will be suffer much more than psi-user. oO

- Unlike all other weapons, they don't need any Will (or even skill) to increase their precision.
- Other weapons need higher than average base ability behind them for adequate precision.
- Resolve/fortitude is tested against your effective skill level, but they scale from level and attributes. Also NPCs don't have a natural bonus to them unlike to dodge and evasion. This could mean psionic CC is fairly unlike to be resisted even if you have 3 will, but I sure hope that's not the case.

Sad but True =(
But you still need high will for the best psi feats and Psi-users have their drawbacks too.

- Skill synergies are enough to max them for your level and even save some points - at frigging minimum Will!

?

I gotta mention this. I remember critting for over 1200 once in the previous version with my non-crit test psi build. And for what AP cost? 5. (Tranquility, T-proxy, premed, T-punch, both crits)

Well this is cool indeed but! You used T-proxy and Premeditation(not just T-punch) + you get 2 crits with no crit build(!) and what is the chance of this?
And i was telling about common situation. I can destroy any enemy in 2 hits max(except bladeling - immune to crits)... And how many hits you need to destroy Drednought for ex by psi-user?

[Mindless]

Irrelevant. The topic was psi as secondary skills.

Some people takes Locus of Control even in this case. Right?

1) 1200 damage with 5 AP cost. Nothing else comes anywhere close in terms of damage/AP.

1. This is not regular one. You mentioned that your build is not around crit(chance + damage) than it is very rare situation, right? And with this example you get your abilities on cd.

But that's just how psionics are. With premeditation and tranquility they have ridiculously high anything per AP compared to other weapons. But it isn't a problem - as long as psikers can realistically be expected to take damage in combat encounters (so tranquility won't be too OP) and their burst damage isn't too high.

Maybe but with Tanquility you can't get Psychosis(always pick this one)... And this mean now you have 2 interesting paths:

1. No crit build with lower AP(Tanquility) and Psi costs(with Psionic Mufflers) with better overrall survivability. In this case you even can skip electronics skill.
2. High crit build(Psychosis, Proximal Neuroscopic Filter, Stable Neural Amplifier and Survival Instincts) with higher Psi costs and lower overrall survivability(cuz your HP < 30% very often).

I didn't mean either of those comments to imply any need for changes; they were just observations.

Mb some things will be implemented in the future)
There are too many players who mentioned that psikers are too strong.

I know it's possible to 2-shot dreads (and execute crits can go up to 3.5k easily), but that's not the point. Unless Styg wants to nerf amplified energy weapons.

Why would he do this? =(
Critical Power is high level feat and designed(not solely but) for critical builds.
Amplified energy weapons are not being sold -> you need to invest in electronics heavily.

[Elhazzared]

I belive Mindless merely means that pure psi builds now are very weak.

The psi build has always rellied on the CC to get the survivabillity and now it cannot relly in CC. The moment you throw 2 CC abillities you are out of psi.

Frankly I don't see where would a psiker get survivabillity right now unless you actually make a it a hybrid where the Psi is merely used to throw some CC around and not your primary combat abillity.

Personally, I wouldn't play a psiker now if I would even play the game. 100 max psi and 50 points per stun is rather abusive.

[Mindless]

I belive Mindless merely means that pure psi builds now are very weak.

No, just telling that the psikers are not overpowered as hell. It's a matter of taste =)

Personally, I wouldn't play a psiker now if I would even play the game. 100 max psi and 50 points per stun is rather abusive.

I thought this way at first but in the practice it's not so bad.