SMG build questions

[74n4705]

Hello forum!

TL:DR in the end.

So after many hours of reading, watching Nerd Commando (This guy rules) youtube videos and messing up my first build, I started a Jack of all trades SMG build. The main idea was to get stealth, craft and AoE CC abilities with maximum (Without min maxing) perception secrets. I want to learn from my mistakes so please help me

My stats:

Level: 13

BASE ABILITIES
___________________________

        Strength:    3   
       Dexterity:   10  (Going to max it to lower smg ap cost)
         Agility:    7    (For Interloper or Hit&Run)
    Constitution:    3   
      Perception:   10    (To hit someting, even with it my burst is like 60% usually)
            Will:    3   
    Intelligence:    7    (Clothier\Skinner\GunNut\Power Management)

SKILLS
___________________________

   OFFENSIVE
            Guns:  75(13)
        Throwing:   30(45)    (Holding for now, goin to start leveling it again soon)

   DEFENSIVE
           Dodge:    0
         Evasion:   0 (Dont know if I should level it or pump everything into trowing for dmg boosting)

   SUBTERFUGE
         Stealth:  60(109) (Goind to start leveling it again soon)
         Hacking:   70(87) (Syn with electronics)
     Lockpicking:   50(75) (Syn with mechanics)

   TECHNOLOGY
       Mechanics:  75(94)
     Electronics:  75(94)
       Chemistry:   55(72) (For grenades)
         Biology:   35(51) (For drugs, with syn from chem 35 will give me 60 and all the drugs I need)
       Tailoring:  75(94)   

FEATS
___________________________
   Nimble
   Expertise
   Clothier
   Gun Nut
   Sprint
   Suppressive Fire
   Spec Ops
   Grenadier
Using http://underrail.info.tm/
My end game build will be:

UNDERRAIL BUILD (ver. 1.0.0.6)

Level: 25

BASE ABILITIES
___________________________

        Strength:    3   
       Dexterity:   13   
         Agility:    7   
    Constitution:    3   
      Perception:   10   
            Will:    3   
    Intelligence:    7   

SKILLS
___________________________

   OFFENSIVE
            Guns:  135(203)
        Throwing:   70(123)    (Will it be enough?)

   DEFENSIVE
           Dodge:    0  (9)
         Evasion:   95(119) (Will it help me at all?)

   SUBTERFUGE
         Stealth:  135(169)
         Hacking:   70(100) (Do I need More?)
     Lockpicking:   50(108) (Do I need More?)

   TECHNOLOGY
       Mechanics:  135(169)
     Electronics:  135(169)
       Chemistry:   80(104) (MkV)
         Biology:   40 (62) (All chems)
       Tailoring:  135(169)   

FEATS
___________________________
   Nimble
   Expertise
   Opportunist
   Pack Rathound (For comfort, running after 5 maps back to my stash getting kinda boring)
   Clothier
   Gun Nut
   Skinner (I usually use vests, should I bother with leather armor?)
   Sprint
   Suppressive Fire
   Interloper (Should I even bother?)
   Spec Ops
   Commando
   Grenadier
   Three-Pointer

TL:DR Questions

So my main concern is:

There are too many feats that you have to get by level 12:
GunNut, Clothier, SpecOps, Expertise, Sprint and Grenadier are a must have for gun/armor making fun and dmg.
I took Nimble for movement, but I think it was a mistake should've taken Opportunist for early dmg and level Nimble later if Im going to take evasion and Supresive Fire [For Opportunist combo] are my level 12 feats.
This means that at lvl 14 I get Commando, lvl 16 Opportunist and only by level 18 I will finally have  the opportunity to take RatPack or Interloper [Or Hit&Run] and this is basically 60% of the game
1)Am I right about Nimble switch with Opportunist?

2)Agi 7, Interloper or Hit&Run worth it or I spent 1 base point for nothing?

3)Should I invest in evasion till 95(119) if I have Nimble, possibly Evasive Maneuvers if I wont take Interloper\Hit&Run and cloaking devices or cut my losses and pump everything in trowing for dmg?

4)Are leather armor and skinner needed? With Clothier and high kevlar cloth I sink I can make something good end game, and have Nimble activated but is it worth it?
OR should I invest this in Power Management for my trinkets?

5)Can I cut on Mech,Elect,Tailor skills? How many points do I need to craft the best weapon and armor late game? I can live with 90% of the greatest shield and cloaking device or so I think, can I?

6)Is Perception of 10 was needed and how many secrets would I miss with Per 8(For maxing dex maybe?)?

7)What is the best SMG to use?
For 5mm I crafted myself Jackrabbit with burst precision mods at the start of the game and now changing it for 5mm Jaguar with Smart\Rapid Reload mods 4 bursts a round.
What about 7.62mm Jag vs 8.6mm SteelCat with Smart\RapidReload mod for my heavy option?
8.6 Incendiary sounds fun and CC friendly but 7.62mm Micro Shrapnel have more DPS (But again usually you kill the enemy in 1 round so there is no time for DoT).
7.62 Jag with dex 12 is 3 bursts a round, 8.6 SteelCat will always be 2.

8)Lockpicking\Hacking 100 is enough right? Didnt see more than that for now.

9) What is the best shield for this build? I use double high for now.

That is all for now, thank you!

[Juri]

Your skill points seem good but it looks like your taking a lot of unnecessary feats when there are better ones for SMG usage

[74n4705]

Your skill points seem good but it looks like your taking a lot of unnecessary feats when there are better ones for SMG usage

Like what for example?

[Juri]

Your skill points seem good but it looks like your taking a lot of unnecessary feats when there are better ones for SMG usage

Like what for example?

Rapid fire and full auto are musts for an smg build. I'd personally take something else over pack rathound and drop skinner as there will be better armor that you can get.

[74n4705]

Your skill points seem good but it looks like your taking a lot of unnecessary feats when there are better ones for SMG usage

Like what for example?

Rapid fire and full auto are musts for an smg build. I'd personally take something else over pack rathound and drop skinner as there will be better armor that you can get.

If you go for full auto 7 str will be your rat pack I thought that dex and 4-5-6 burst from smg's are the smg build. Rapid fire is interesting tho, for leftover ap, nice. Tnx. What about all else?

[Toast]

8)Lockpicking\Hacking 100 is enough right? Didnt see more than that for now.

9) What is the best shield for this build? I use double high for now.

8. You will not see higher than that for a very long time, but at endgame there are lockpicking/hacking checks up to 130-135.

9. Whatever gives you the most trouble.    For me it is surprise knife/crossbow assholes and melee creatures, so I went on the low side. If you are sneaking around in stealth you probably won't get surprised by Lurkers and Crawlers, so feel free to keep double high if it's helpful.

[player1]

The way I see it, these are essentially most important feats for the SMG build:

1) Expertise - you will burst a lot, and each bullet will add to the expertise
2) Full Auto - somewhat controversial due to high STR7 requirement. But if you want to specialize in SMG, instead to just dabble in it, you will pick it up, 40% higher rate of fire is a must
3) Spec Ops - no brainer
4) Commando - no brainer

And that is it. Everything else is optional.

.

Other notable feats that go well with SMG build

1) Suppresive fire - gives debuff in burst area. Not really required in early game when you can kill everything in a few rounds, but can be useful later as sort of crowd control debuff against tougher enemy groups

High PER synergy:
If going for high PER, then sniper "dual classing" is good choice:
2) Aimed Shot - can be used for the sniper or some other secondary with higher per hit attack then SMG to add versatility
3) Sniper - devastating attack from the distance to open the combat. Getting 10 points in PER is waste, if not taking this feat

Mobility option:
4) Nimble - to get more movement for high precision bursting and to keep Evasion/Dodge defenses up. Most effective if not going for heavy armors
5) Hit and Run - to quickly change position from one killed enemy to another. Really needs good DEX management in order to have enough AP for 2 bursts at least, as well as good mobility, otherwise it is a waste

.

Not so great feat "traps":

1) Point Shot - if you manage well you DEX, you will not have excess AP to use to get an extra single shot every other round. And SMG do not give high damage per shot, although if you have secondary weapon with low AP cost it could be useful
2) Rapid Fire - poor man full auto, and just like with point shot if you manage your DEX well you will not have excess AP to use it to get this +150% AP attack. Plus it has 2 rounds cool down.

[newageofpower]

Actually, my favorite build is currently max Dex crafting/SMG/Leather, no full auto; my previous SMG build ran 7 STR and I was usually overkilling my opponents by about 4 rounds.

After thinkkng about it, because you take 6 agi min, you get a ton of movement and initiative, which means you can position yourself so that your chance to hit goes over 50-60%. With a crafted SMG (I picked up a q60 impala frame from Blaine before finishing Junkyard!), you can kill soft opponents in 1-2 hits.


Late game, Spec Ops and 16 Dex let's you burst for 14 ap. Adren, + Commando = 6 bursts per turn. You will need to be dual wielding SMGs to fire that many bullets!

For a Crafted SMG build, Full auto just wastes more AP on reloading, not to mention bullets! I'd rather dump Strength and get extra Perception - even Agility is a better raw stat than Strength in an Ranged build.

Dumping Constitution is strangely exhilarating, late-game wise. Sure, you can mow down swarms of enemies with your absurd bulletstorm, but one bad call and you're toast.

[74n4705]

bla bla

8. You will not see higher than that for a very long time, but at endgame there are lockpicking/hacking checks up to 130-135.

9. Whatever gives you the most trouble.    For me it is surprise knife/crossbow assholes and melee creatures, so I went on the low side. If you are sneaking around in stealth you probably won't get surprised by Lurkers and Crawlers, so feel free to keep double high if it's helpful.

Tnx I'll do some adjustments.

Actually, my favorite build is currently max Dex crafting/SMG/Leather, no full auto; my previous SMG build ran 7 STR and I was usually overkilling my opponents by about 4 rounds.

Late game, Spec Ops and 16 Dex let's you burst for 14 ap. Adren, + Commando = 6 bursts per turn. You will need to be dual wielding SMGs to fire that many bullets!

You make leather with kevlar for bullets or just leather? How are you surviving bursts?
I wont have 16 dex, I'll have 13 max, what are the burst count dex checkpoints?

Mobility option:
4) Nimble - to get more movement for high precision bursting and to keep Evasion/Dodge defenses up. Most effective if not going for heavy armors
5) Hit and Run - to quickly change position from one killed enemy to another. Really needs good DEX management in order to have enough AP for 2 bursts at least, as well as good mobility, otherwise it is a waste

Not so great feat "traps":

1) Point Shot - if you manage well you DEX, you will not have excess AP to use to get an extra single shot every other round. And SMG do not give high damage per shot, although if you have secondary weapon with low AP cost it could be useful
2) Rapid Fire - poor man full auto, and just like with point shot if you manage your DEX well you will not have excess AP to use it to get this +150% AP attack. Plus it has 2 rounds cool down.

How can I manage my dex for max burst count? What can I sacrifice skill wise for evasion?

[player1]

Idea is to choose SMGs and build your DEX is such way, that 2 or 3 bursts will take out almost all your AP, while getting as much powerful SMG bullets as possible.

For example, if you have DEX 7 and Spec Ops, choose H&K SMG, since it will have 12AP with biggest power per bullet, and you will be able to use 2 burst for 48AP. If on other other hand, if you chose heavier 8.6mm SMG that takes 14AP, then you are unable to two two burst with AP 50 and you are not correctly managing your DEX.

On the other hand, if you take lighter SMG that uses 10AP, you do not get anything, since you can still burst twice in the round, while sacrificing power per single bullet and only thing you get in return is single extra regular non-burst attack, that may not compensate for lower power per bullet.

.

One more possibility is to use Adrenaline for tougher fights to get extra 20AP (10AP in current round and 20 in next two). In this case look for SMG with biggest caliber that can take 11AP to use. 22AP * 3 = 66AP

[Wildan]

For a Crafted SMG build, Full auto just wastes more AP on reloading, not to mention bullets!

Weather or not it's worth to put extra 4 points into str for Full Auto for SMGs depends on several factors like if you alrady plan to use the muzzle break (5->7 shots is 40% increase compared to 7->9 which is only 28%), as well as clipsize vs bullets in a burst vs total burst attacks, but also if you can afford lower perception and thus less accuracy. That last factor is pretty significant so my favorite SMG build is actually an unarmed brawler hybrid where just like dex, 7 str synergizes very well.

The major weakness of SMGs is their puny base damage. It helps a bit to take a higher caliber but it will make you burst too few times or require a lot of dex. A low caliber like 5mm gives you many rounds to fire but even with expertise it will often only tickle high DT enemies. So it's of a huge advantage if you can overcome enemy DT with melee debuffs and then use the SMG to do the damage.
Expose weakness (-50% DT), Vile Weaponry (up to extra 30% damage), Bone Breaker (up to extra 50% damage) and Opportunist (+25% damage on stunned), and because stun negates evasion the following 2 full burst attacks will all hit and make out any mobile fortress swish cheese. Not to mention the exceptional crowd control and debuffs stacks because of Combo, Cheap Shots, Wrestling (Tackle) and Supressive Fire.

Despite 7 str, in my particular 12 dex build I have enough room for 3 unarmed 5 AP attacks (guaranteed stun from Combo if they all connect), two 9-shot burst attacks (14 AP each) from a 5mm impaler, one additional burst from Commando, reloading the SMG and I can still pick 5 constitution late game or buff perception to 10.

Skill distribution is a bit tricky because I need to invest in both the melee and guns skill but it can be pulled off.

[newageofpower]

How do I survive bursts?

Early game, kevlar tacvest, stealth, positioning.

Late game, infused Leather, stealth, shields. Leather is too weak early game, esp on a glass 3con build until you have SS Leather and crafted shield emitter.

[Juri]

The way I see it, these are essentially most important feats for the SMG build:

1) Expertise - you will burst a lot, and each bullet will add to the expertise
2) Full Auto - somewhat controversial due to high STR7 requirement. But if you want to specialize in SMG, instead to just dabble in it, you will pick it up, 40% higher rate of fire is a must
3) Spec Ops - no brainer
4) Commando - no brainer

And that is it. Everything else is optional.

.

Other notable feats that go well with SMG build

1) Suppresive fire - gives debuff in burst area. Not really required in early game when you can kill everything in a few rounds, but can be useful later as sort of crowd control debuff against tougher enemy groups

High PER synergy:
If going for high PER, then sniper "dual classing" is good choice:
2) Aimed Shot - can be used for the sniper or some other secondary with higher per hit attack then SMG to add versatility
3) Sniper - devastating attack from the distance to open the combat. Getting 10 points in PER is waste, if not taking this feat

Mobility option:
4) Nimble - to get more movement for high precision bursting and to keep Evasion/Dodge defenses up. Most effective if not going for heavy armors
5) Hit and Run - to quickly change position from one killed enemy to another. Really needs good DEX management in order to have enough AP for 2 bursts at least, as well as good mobility, otherwise it is a waste

.

Not so great feat "traps":

1) Point Shot - if you manage well you DEX, you will not have excess AP to use to get an extra single shot every other round. And SMG do not give high damage per shot, although if you have secondary weapon with low AP cost it could be useful
2) Rapid Fire - poor man full auto, and just like with point shot if you manage your DEX well you will not have excess AP to use it to get this +150% AP attack. Plus it has 2 rounds cool down.

Rapid fire is amazing for SMG builds

[Wildan]

Rapid Fire is amazing for SMG builds

It's very good for pistols but it's pretty much a waste for SMGs. 3 shots for 150% AP is mediocre compared to 9 shots bursts for 200% AP. That makes a max burst 2.25 times stronger when it comes to damage per AP point. It also has reduced precission and it's even greater than that of a burst attack if you're more than 3 tiles away from the target. Also the 2 round cooldown makes it too unreliable.

Just look at the math (assuming you have SMGs in both slots and thus don't need to reload in the same round):
16 AP burst can be used 3 times - 2 AP left - no Rapid Fire possible.
14 AP burst can be used 3 times - 8 AP left - no Rapid Fire possible.
12 AP burst can be used 4 times - 2 AP left - no Rapid Fire possible.
10 AP burst can be used 5 times - 0 AP left - no Rapid Fire possible.

It can be useful in situations like when you throw a grenade, have 35 AP left and can't fit 12 AP bursts for 3 times or when you reload and you don't have enough AP to burst once more but IMO that's not good enough.