Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

[reinhark]

And now that we have removed cooldown for the hacking and lockpicking, could we remove the cooldown from the last crime - pick pocketing?

But how would that work tho?

Um, Make it so you no longer have to wait for 5 seconds to pick pocket 2nd person after you finish pick pocketing 1st person?

[drealmer7]

not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

perhaps once you hit lockpicking 150 a feat could be unlocked that removes the cooldown, since at that point you're SUPERskilled at pickpocketing

[reinhark]

not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.

[drealmer7]

not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.

no, lockpicking and hacking involve interacting with inanimate objects, pickpocketing is with a conscious being

[reinhark]

not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.

no, lockpicking and hacking involve interacting with inanimate objects, pickpocketing is with a conscious being

All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?

[TheAverageGortsby]

All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?

As a side effect of making the right choice about all non-hostility-provoking hacking and lockpicking.  There are *a lot* of locks to crack and when you're exploring the world it's often the case you get several very close to each other.  In a perfect world, maybe you'd get a debuff after doing potentially hostility-provoking lockpicking/hacking/pickpocketing that would prevent you from doing those things again to give the game time to "catch up" and make allowances for what you've done.  But there is no non-hostile pickpocketing, right?  Everyone hates it.  There's a lot of non-hostile lock cracking.  So that's the reasonable cause, I think.

[reinhark]

All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?

As a side effect of making the right choice about all non-hostility-provoking hacking and lockpicking.  There are *a lot* of locks to crack and when you're exploring the world it's often the case you get several very close to each other.  In a perfect world, maybe you'd get a debuff after doing potentially hostility-provoking lockpicking/hacking/pickpocketing that would prevent you from doing those things again to give the game time to "catch up" and make allowances for what you've done.  But there is no non-hostile pickpocketing, right?  Everyone hates it.  There's a lot of non-hostile lock cracking.  So that's the reasonable cause, I think.

All pickpocketing that does not make you directly hostile to the NPC is non-hostile pickpocketing.

There are lots of non-hostile pickpocketing.

Your argument is invalid.

If you disagree, please provide reason *why* (sensible non NPC aggro) pickpocketing is any different than a neutral locked chest in the middle of the city.

[TheAverageGortsby]

All pickpocketing that does not make you directly hostile to the NPC is non-hostile pickpocketing.

There are lots of non-hostile pickpocketing.

Your argument is invalid.

If you disagree, please provide reason *why* (sensible non NPC aggro) pickpocketing is any different than a neutral locked chest in the middle of the city.

<laugh>  No.  Your definition is ridiculous.  By that tortured logic, if nobody sees you commit murder, it's not really murder because nobody is mad at you for it.

When you pickpocket, you build up suspicion.  Suspicion is the threshold where you can safely pick pockets, but even somewhere relatively safe and friendly like SGS, if you are caught pickpocketing (by exceeding the suspicion threshold), you're getting shot in the face.  Out in the wilderness of the UnderRail tunnels, you even need to be stealthed to get that far.  If your pickpocketing is generating suspicion, then it's hostile pickpocketing, since once you're caught, the NPC will try to make you stop.

Now, I'm certainly no Pickpocketing expert.  Maybe there are places where you can pick pockets, exceed the suspicion threshold, and nobody cares.  THAT - and only that - would be non-hostile pickpocketing because the target genuinely doesn't care that you've taken something from them.  So in those cases, you'd be doing non-hostile pickpocketing.  If such cases exist.

So pickpocketing is different than a locked neutral chest in the middle of the city because people can "catch" you opening the chest and they don't care, but if they catch you stealing from them, they do.  One is inherently hostile to them, the other not.  And because there are many (perhaps even a majority - I haven't counted but almost none of the locks outside population centers are owned, and many within are still not owned) situations where a lock is non-aggro-generating, but few situations where pickpocketing is non-aggro-generating, the skills and use cases are different enough that applying the same standard is disingenuous.

[reinhark]

<laugh>  No.  Your definition is ridiculous.  By that tortured logic, if nobody sees you commit murder, it's not really murder because nobody is mad at you for it.

When you pickpocket, you build up suspicion.  Suspicion is the threshold where you can safely pick pockets, but even somewhere relatively safe and friendly like SGS, if you are caught pickpocketing (by exceeding the suspicion threshold), you're getting shot in the face.  Out in the wilderness of the UnderRail tunnels, you even need to be stealthed to get that far.  If your pickpocketing is generating suspicion, then it's hostile pickpocketing, since once you're caught, the NPC will try to make you stop.

Now, I'm certainly no Pickpocketing expert.  Maybe there are places where you can pick pockets, exceed the suspicion threshold, and nobody cares.  THAT - and only that - would be non-hostile pickpocketing because the target genuinely doesn't care that you've taken something from them.  So in those cases, you'd be doing non-hostile pickpocketing.  If such cases exist.

So pickpocketing is different than a locked neutral chest in the middle of the city because people can "catch" you opening the chest and they don't care, but if they catch you stealing from them, they do.  One is inherently hostile to them, the other not.  And because there are many (perhaps even a majority - I haven't counted but almost none of the locks outside population centers are owned, and many within are still not owned) situations where a lock is non-aggro-generating, but few situations where pickpocketing is non-aggro-generating, the skills and use cases are different enough that applying the same standard is disingenuous.

Tortured logic that is defined in the zone control itself?
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zone_Control

But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)

[TheAverageGortsby]

But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)

Well, I don't think inherent hostility is the crux of the issue.  I believe the issue is, "why is pickpocketing treated differently than hacking or lockpicking".  I think inherent hostility is the reason why you can't apply the same standards to pickpocketing that you can to hack/lock.

My first post about this was that removing the cooldown on hack/lock was correct.  It was correct because the waiting period forced on the player by the game was undesirable, but that argument was only valid because in many - perhaps most - cases, the hack/lock action didn't produce any need for the game world to react.  The cooldown provides time for the game to respond to player action. 

So, again, I'm not sure I can find your reasoning sound.  I'm not in favor of a cooldown on looting in general, because forcing a player to wait for what will usually look like no good reason isn't fun at all, and good game design should worry a lot about what's fun, a lot about what's practical, and less about what's realistic.  That said, I could certainly imagine situations where a cooldown period could be implemented and wouldn't be terribly harmful - for example, if the take all action worked and provided the same short cooldown (5s perhaps, like pickpocketing does?), it would rarely be a bother.  Your cooldown is target to target, anyway, not item to item so there's not so much difference there.  And, much like I said in my earlier post, you're comparing very different things here so applying a similar standard is a bad idea - looting is not an action comparable to hack/lock or pickpocket, which are skills.

Like I suggested, in an ideal world perhaps popping a lock, picking a pocket, or (adding to my previous musing based on your suggestion) taking an owned item would put a debuff of some sort on the play which would prevent further such action and give the game world time to react.  But those sounds like they would be pretty substantial changes to the game code, and I also was just musing on potential alternatives and haven't really thought if that would be in practice any use.

[reinhark]

But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)

Well, I don't think inherent hostility is the crux of the issue.  I believe the issue is, "why is pickpocketing treated differently than hacking or lockpicking".  I think inherent hostility is the reason why you can't apply the same standards to pickpocketing that you can to hack/lock.

My first post about this was that removing the cooldown on hack/lock was correct.  It was correct because the waiting period forced on the player by the game was undesirable, but that argument was only valid because in many - perhaps most - cases, the hack/lock action didn't produce any need for the game world to react.  The cooldown provides time for the game to respond to player action. 

You have a good point on making the game respond to player action. However, in most cases pickpocketing does not make the NPC react to your actions. If you do - presumably by aggroing them - you don't need to use pickpocket. You punch them and take their stuff which is much more efficient.(and you probably can if you invested in useful skills instead of pick pocketing)

This leads me to conclude that pickpocketing is about looting limited items while not actually making game react to you. It is about taking loot out of npc pocket box without killing all of them. A skill that requires significant amount of investment and not even essential for combat or oddities. Pickpocketing within suspension limit is just suspension, not a hostility therefore it should be treated like opening a box.

Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?

[TheAverageGortsby]

Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?

I feel like the language barrier is hurting us here. I wish I spoke...German, is it? But I don't, so thanks for doing this in English.  Alright, I'll try to be super clear.

Theses:
1) Pickpocketing is always a hostile action.  Proof: If an NPC will see you do it, they will try to stop you.
2) Hostile actions may require game response.  Proof: NPCs who were previously not hostile, become hostile, when player is noticed doing a hostile action.
3) Pickpocketing provides value in exchange for skill investment.  Proof: Items which can only be obtained by killing & looting are available without the consequences of killing.
4) Skills which provide value have costs, and should have them.  Proof: Hacking requires a special tool, plus consumable batteries; lockpicking requires consumable lockpicks.  Pickpocketing requires time.
5) Skills in UnderRail have success thresholds.  Proof: locks have difficulty rating.  Picking pockets can fail to begin if skill is too low.

Conclusions: Pickpocketing has a special cost of time that lockpicking and hacking do not have.  Pickpocketing and lockpicking have special costs of tools and consumables that pickpocketing does not have.  Pickpocketing is a more hostile action, overall, than hacking or lockpicking.  So it is not wise to hold pickpocketing to the same standard as lockpicking/hacking.  Suspicion is not a punishment to pickpockets - it is the essential limiting mechanic.  Suspicion is not a punishment but actually a reward mechanic for the skill because additional investment reduces suspicion per item.

Additional assumptions: Just because you are not caught, that does not mean your action was not hostile.  Hostility =/= combat although it may lead to it.

And to be clear, if you just can't pick the pocket any more, that in no way changes the inherent hostility of picking pockets.  It just makes it impossible to be caught, which would be removing consequences from skill use.  I have no idea if people would like that.

[reinhark]

Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?

I feel like the language barrier is hurting us here. I wish I spoke...German, is it? But I don't, so thanks for doing this in English.  Alright, I'll try to be super clear.

Theses:
1) Pickpocketing is always a hostile action.  Proof: If an NPC will see you do it, they will try to stop you.
2) Hostile actions may require game response.  Proof: NPCs who were previously not hostile, become hostile, when player is noticed doing a hostile action.
3) Pickpocketing provides value in exchange for skill investment.  Proof: Items which can only be obtained by killing & looting are available without the consequences of killing.
4) Skills which provide value have costs, and should have them.  Proof: Hacking requires a special tool, plus consumable batteries; lockpicking requires consumable lockpicks.  Pickpocketing requires time.
5) Skills in UnderRail have success thresholds.  Proof: locks have difficulty rating.  Picking pockets can fail to begin if skill is too low.

Conclusions: Pickpocketing has a special cost of time that lockpicking and hacking do not have.  Pickpocketing and lockpicking have special costs of tools and consumables that pickpocketing does not have.  Pickpocketing is a more hostile action, overall, than hacking or lockpicking.  So it is not wise to hold pickpocketing to the same standard as lockpicking/hacking.  Suspicion is not a punishment to pickpockets - it is the essential limiting mechanic.  Suspicion is not a punishment but actually a reward mechanic for the skill because additional investment reduces suspicion per item.

Additional assumptions: Just because you are not caught, that does not mean your action was not hostile.  Hostility =/= combat although it may lead to it.

And to be clear, if you just can't pick the pocket any more, that in no way changes the inherent hostility of picking pockets.  It just makes it impossible to be caught, which would be removing consequences from skill use.  I have no idea if people would like that.

Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too. This makes pickpocket literally non hostile action. (you would not be able to pick pocket above your suspension limit)
I am sure many people wouldn't mind as they seldom used that particular function intentionally. That was the main argument of your case, yes? By design, unless you are cheating you would be unable to trigger hostility using pickpocket what so ever.
So 1. Pickpocket(after the proposed change) is by definition cannot be a hostile action. The game itself will make sure you cannot be caught doing it.
2. Therefore it never requires game response.

I think it is a better option. After all, if you want to go past the suspesion limit, you probably have to kill that guy. You would have much better chance of killing that guy under your terms - not in melee, unstealthed and AP spent on pickpocketing for example. 

Edit: and as for #4, I completely agree. Furthermore I think it is fair to being back cooldown for lockpicking and hacking since they have advantage of not being a hostile action. Those have much, much much greater variety and value of loot and extra contents only accessible through those skills. Why should it just be monetary investment? We should also make players invest time into them. I think it would be fair to make them even longer than before considering how much value those skills provide.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too.

Remove the hostility of stealing?  That's ridiculous.  If you do that you may as well remove all sense of ownership for everything in the game, which is also ridiculous but not worse than removing the inherent hostility of stealing - which is what pickpocketing is.  Stealing.  Unlike opening locks which aren't owned.

And no, you've again completely misunderstood what I'm saying, and cumulatively so, to boot.  You're intentionally ignoring the simple points i'm making, presumably because you so desperately want pickpocketing to be more simple a tool.  Your suggestions just don't make any sense in a game designed to be fun or internally consistent.  You would neuter a skill (pickpocketing) and make the entire game slower and more boring (increased delay in lock skills) just so...what? You wouldn't have to think about pickpocketing and it would just be an inventory for characters who bought into the skill?  Ridiculous.

By your suggestion, pickpocketing would no longer benefit from skill investment beyond threshold clearance.  That would have the advantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game, but it would also have the disadvantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game.  You would just have an NPC inventory to choose from, and a set value of what could be taken.  This deprives the player of agency by removing their ability to improve the amount of items stealable (the effect of the skill, and thus the effect of the build).  It also would put a fairly large burden on the devs to rebalance the inventory and/or pickpocketing threshold of every pickpocketable NPC.  No, it appears that what you want is to prevent players from being allowed to make good pickpockets, so that everyone who is a pickpocket is instead an utterly average one.  That's terrible design.

[reinhark]

Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too.

Remove the hostility of stealing?  That's ridiculous.  If you do that you may as well remove all sense of ownership for everything in the game, which is also ridiculous but not worse than removing the inherent hostility of stealing - which is what pickpocketing is.  Stealing.  Unlike opening locks which aren't owned.

And no, you've again completely misunderstood what I'm saying, and cumulatively so, to boot.  You're intentionally ignoring the simple points i'm making, presumably because you so desperately want pickpocketing to be more simple a tool.  Your suggestions just don't make any sense in a game designed to be fun or internally consistent.  You would neuter a skill (pickpocketing) and make the entire game slower and more boring (increased delay in lock skills) just so...what? You wouldn't have to think about pickpocketing and it would just be an inventory for characters who bought into the skill?  Ridiculous.

By your suggestion, pickpocketing would no longer benefit from skill investment beyond threshold clearance.  That would have the advantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game, but it would also have the disadvantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game.  You would just have an NPC inventory to choose from, and a set value of what could be taken.  This deprives the player of agency by removing their ability to improve the amount of items stealable (the effect of the skill, and thus the effect of the build).  It also would put a fairly large burden on the devs to rebalance the inventory and/or pickpocketing threshold of every pickpocketable NPC.  No, it appears that what you want is to prevent players from being allowed to make good pickpockets, so that everyone who is a pickpocket is instead an utterly average one.  That's terrible design.

For first paragraph, no. By definition it is no longer a hostile action. I am not so sure what you are getting at. Item ownership? Then how come you can trigger hostility from them by punching them in the face and take all their stuff? Is that not bad design then, allowing player to loot everything from NPC? Pick pocket is *just* another way of giving player more choice to take everyone's stuff. Like other stealing skills and punching people in the face.
(And yes. I do trigger partial hostility from NPC by punching them in the face because I know those kills are consequence free. I assume you have not tried it before?)

Second paragraph: I could say the same to you. But you don't see me accusing you making game slower and unfun by giving pickpocket cooldown. You think that only pickpocket should have cooldown, I think we should bring back cooldown back for the locks and hacks. You said it yourself that skill need investment. I just think it is not enough for locks and hacks. And that neutering comment. HAHA, that is one way to look at it. Either you have misunderstood what I said or you think installing safety on the mechanic is neutring them. Like installing worker protection on the circular saw and reducing its capacity to cut user's limbs off counts as "Neutering". You could provide as how ability to trigger hostility from pickpocket is beneficial though. I doubt you can.

Third paragraph display that you really misunderstood what I said. I will try to keep it simple.
1. Keep the same pickpocket system.
2. Player will be unable to steal an item from NPC when transparent bar becomes red.