skill point / build ? for a relative UnderRail noob

[drealmer7]

I'm not generally one to ask questions about builds.  I don't care to make a powerbuild in the slightest, just one I enjoy playing and to me that means having using skills I like, and the skill implementation in UnderRail is (some of?) the best I've seen, making me want to play the game numerous times to see what differences the game has to offer with the different skills (whereas in a lot of RPGs there tends to be less of an appeal for me to utilize so many skills that the game has to offer.) - but I don't really have time for that, so I'm looking to get the most bang for my buck time.

Anyway, I've been gaming a long time and am pretty comfortable with making characters and doing well in games, so I'm not really looking for that standard "how's this build" feedback (though I imagine such will be unavoidable with my pumping up of will and int but not doing a psi heavy build, etc.), I'm more looking for specific information in regards to skill-usage via the skillpoint# in a kind of 'how low can you go' to retain viability that doesn't make the game tedious. 

-

feats:  snooping, paranoia

stats: STR 3, DEX 3, AGI 4, CON 3, PER 7, INT 10, WILL 10

skills:

crossbows: 15 (18)
stealth: 15
hacking: 10 (15)
lockpick: 10
traps: 10
mechanics: 10 (15)
electronics: 10 (15)
metathermics: 10 (15)
persuasion: 10 (15)
intimidation: 10 (15)

at this point ^ I have 10 points left, and the question becomes, where do I get the most value for those 10 points?  I keep waffling between a few different variants of this build trying to figure "what is best" or what are the advantages or drawbacks to each or whatever else about them I might not be aware of in my noobness.

My desire in RPGs are always to have the most dialogue options possible that have the most sophistication/intelligence about them, so my initial inclinations are to make persuasion and intimidation both at 15 (22) - but I don't know if that is simply overkill.  I also wonder if about puting hacking up to 15 (22) [keeping persuasion at 15(22) but intimidation at 10(15), if I should perhaps make it 15 for traps or lockpicking, or both and leave the persuasion+intimidation at 10(15), OR, maybe I should put those 10 points into another crafting skill to increase the crossbow bolt potential and get some other cool stuff going on in game?  again, priority is dialogue impact, and even so I'd probably rather more trap options than bolt options, and so does that mean I want to put traps up to 15 to start, or into crafting capabilities that make traps, or whatever else is relevant.

OR, are all those 10s in the skills too many / too spread regardless of any of the above ^ / regardless of the (#) ?

okay thanks for reading if you did...

[TheAverageGortsby]

Keep in mind that level cap is 25, and you gain 40 skill points per level (and 1 stat point per 4 levels), so your starting spread is really only a very small part of your character.  You will probably level up in less than an hour of gameplay - maybe less than 15 minutes if you rush but you sound like you take your time with games like this.

If you're playing on easy or normal difficulty, then really all you need to do is make moderately good tactical decisions and almost any build will work fine.  You want to max your dialog options?  Then get to an effective Persuasion of about 110 - until the expansion comes out, whenever it does, there's no need to really max that skill.  Also, if you like your non-combat options, get a little over 100 effective Mercantile.  You've got a stat profile that strongly reinforces Psi so you may want to seriously consider getting at least 75 points into Thought Control, and picking up Premeditation (just do that, regardless of your decision on Thought Control, trust me) and Locus of Control.

If you really want detailed help regarding skill thresholds in the game (which will also come with a few spoilers so beware) you should look up destroyor's FAQ.  He's got a substantial build section and explains what might work best for various characters, and why.  But you may find the section on skill minimums to be more what you need to make up your mind.  If you completely want to avoid spoilers at this point, just get that 110ish effective Persuasion and Mercantile, and maybe 130 Hacking, 75 Intimidation, and 100-110 Lockpicking (lockpicking is nice on Classic XP mode, but is more important on Oddity)

EDIT: Oh, and if you want to max out some very early-game opportunities, get 15 base Mercantile and Persuasion on character generation.  That'll pay dividends before you leave the SGS on your first training mission

[bati]

I recommend you specialize - go either crossbow or full psi, mixing them is not very wise. Even on normal UnderRail isn't exactly an easy game, at least for a new player.

As for stat points - general rule of thumb is to pump your main combat stat - either dex on light weapon builds to reduce AP cost, perception for ranged, will for psi, etc. After that come feat requirements, and after that you look at the skills you want to use and make sure you don't hit penalties (below 4 in associated main stat) to get the most out of it. For example, I tend to go pretty high on INT on my crafting heavy builds, even though I'm basically wasting the main stat points that I could put into my combat stat - but getting lots of extra skill points is worth it to me.

For skill thresholds you can check out this guide, I think it's still more or less up to date - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=843557165

I recommend you try out the skill calculator ( http://underrail.info.tm/build/ ) to see what effective stats will be in the final build. And keep in mind that base values are only used for feat requirements, for skill checks you need to look at effective values (those in brackets).

[drealmer7]

couple notes:

I have played the game for about 30 hrs total, but by replaying the first 5-15 hrs a handful of times experimenting with different skills to see how things worked and what I wanted to do.  So I am aware of how leveling up works and getting skillpoints to add more skills and whatnot, so I'm asking what I am about the starting spreads to see if choosing those skills only, with the basic idea behind them in "keeping these maxed and keeping these a little less tha maxed", is spread out too much, or if there's any glaring issues with making that many starting skills at 10 and spreading up the used skills that much while still being able to get the most out of using them (like having hacking not always maxed isn't going to run me into missing the option to do certain things in the game, is a concern, or having put too many points into persuasion+intimidation that aren't at all necessary because I'm outpacing any dialogue needs by enough points that more points can go into other skills.)

I'm probably just overthinking it all, and it's all in excitement to GET PLAYING, because:

I don't plan to play more until after the expansion is out.  After I played the beginning a handful of times (partway through the junkyard a few times is about all? and a few shorter runs), the expansion was announced and I am waiting for it (and 1x patch after it is out) to start anew and sink my teeth into it fully.

[drealmer7]

If you completely want to avoid spoilers at this point, just get that 110ish effective Persuasion and Mercantile, and maybe 130 Hacking, 75 Intimidation, and 100-110 Lockpicking (lockpicking is nice on Classic XP mode, but is more important on Oddity)

EDIT: Oh, and if you want to max out some very early-game opportunities, get 15 base Mercantile and Persuasion on character generation.  That'll pay dividends before you leave the SGS on your first training mission

thanks this is the sort of thing I was absolutely looking for!!! I am avoiding all spoilers so looking at that skill guide is out, but this helps a lot

OH and yes, of course I'm going to be playing in oddity XP system!

I figure 3 damages come from crossbows+traps+metathermics will be plenty of offense, with aimed shot and a few other feats I think will be loads of fun, mixed with high dialogue influence, and hacking+lockpicking, and fucn crafting

yesyes, I'm psyched and more than ready to GET STARTED, but, patience patience and in the meantime, poring over how I want to do my build (:

I did play with mercantile a bit but ultimately decided to drop it for more crafting skills.  I look forward to potential upgrades in the implementation of mercantile, persuasion, and intimidation in/after the expansion, and won't be playing until all that happens, so, I might reconsider doing mercantile at that time if it seems more viable.

[drealmer7]

yeah, better questions to ask are:

what are the max skill check #s for persuasion and intimidation, so I know exactly what to do with each skill point

and things like:

at where one approximates to be using the oddity XP system at lvl 20, is 95 (135) persuasion + intimidation enough to access all skill checks for those skills at those areas

and, how high do I want to take the 2 crafting skills in light of the other skills?

at level 20 I'm looking at something like:

str 3, dex 3, agi 7, con 3, per 10, will 9, int 10 - are the per, will and int level high enough to get all dialogue options still, or should I be puting the points from agility into those 3 if I want more dialogue (talking post-expansion + refining after expansion)

crossbow 110 (166)
stealth 110 (138
hacking 100 (150)
lockinging 96 (100)
traps 96 (100)
mechanics 50 (75)
electronics 48 (72)
metathermics 70 (99) - is there any reason to want to bump the base to take it to (100) ? - these are the sorts of things I don't know if matters
persuasion 100 (142)
intimidation 100 (142)

with the feats:

paranoia, aimed shot, kneecap shot, bowyer, concussive shots, thermodynamicity, pyromaniac, snipe, ambush, critical power, deadly snares, elemental bolts, echoing soliloquy

[TheAverageGortsby]

what are the max skill check #s for persuasion and intimidation, so I know exactly what to do with each skill point

metathermics 70 (99) - is there any reason to want to bump the base to take it to (100) ? - these are the sorts of things I don't know if matters
persuasion 100 (142)
intimidation 100 (142)

paranoia, aimed shot, kneecap shot, bowyer, concussive shots, thermodynamicity, pyromaniac, snipe, ambush, critical power, deadly snares, elemental bolts, echoing soliloquy

OK.  First of all, what a mess.  You need to refocus pretty substantially.  Let's start with the super obvious ones.
Echoing Soliloquy can't be picked on level up.  It's a special feat that you have to do a thing for.  So you most assuredly won't have it at level 20 since if you're where that feat comes from at level 20, you'll be too busy being dead.

Metathermics is the worst of the three psi schools to go halfway in on.  Most psi builds assume you'll have nearly 300 effective skill if you're making regular use of metathermics.  So either plan to max the base metathermics skill AND p[ump Will several points, or accept that you're going to be using Psi as strictly support (there are a few useful Metathermics abilities in support roles, but that's generally the high-damage output school and with low effective skill you'll find enemies don't much care about your psi output).  In which case, you should be going into either of the other two schools.  Mind control gets you Locus of Control (and at least one interesting dialog option) and as a result a few amazing AoE effects though with ~100 effective skill near endgame enemy resolve may be high enough to give you some small trouble.

That might be too much Persuasion and Intimidation, but the crux of your questions is that you're asking us to tell you thresholds for the expansion content which - unless I've missed something - none of us have or know any such details about.  <sneaks sideways glance at epeli>

Your crafting skills are uselessly low.  Either get them 50 points higher or don't bother levelling them at all - there's no sense crafting something worse than the loot you're going to find laying around.  Bowyer is a terrible choice with such a low Mechanics score since you won't be able to make a good crossbow, even with the feat bonus. The only crafting skills that probably make a lot of sense to level but keep low are Chemistry (if you want to mix your own incendiary grenades but not high quality explosives) or Biology (if there's a specific thing you want to cook then you hit that threshold and stop).  Tailoring, Mechanics, and Electronics are certainly not good choices for partway levelling.  (EDIT: Of course, in the edge case that you want to make improved repair kits but nothing more, then you get 50 effective skill in those three and stop.  While that would be an odd character build choice, it wouldn't be objectively wrong.) (SECOND EDIT: It's late.  It would also make sense to level Electronics only a tiny bit if you wanted to make a Taser and some specialty bolts but not a shield or cloaking generator or high-quality goggles)

You aren't specialized nearly enough.  On easier difficulties, that's not a problem that you can't manage, but you're not making a truly powerful character with such a wide and shallow stat and skill spread.  It's good to see that you're maxing your crossbow and stealth - and your Agi and Per are high enough to be alright for those skills - but you've got some odd decisions there and I don't think you'll be terribly happy with the character that results from them.

If you're slow-playing your crafting and plan to dump points heavily into them from 20+, then mostly ignore my paragraph about your crafting.  Levelling crafting last is a perfectly viable approach given that you don't end up finding really good components regularly until you get pretty close to the point where you stride boldly into the final unknown.

[drealmer7]

but you're not making a truly powerful character with such a wide and shallow stat and skill spread.

thanks for the big post!  it was all helpful

This quoted bit is the sort of thing I'm looking for - I'm not looking to make a truly powerful character, simply one that isn't tedious to play / is fun to play.  Sure, some people argue more powerful is more fun, but that isn't how it is for me.  But with that, I do worry (which is why I made the post), that I'm spreading myself too thin to make the selected skills effective or worthwhile having (and therefore should either pump them up or drop them and pump up others)

I really don't want to put many points into crafting.  I'm mostly doing the mechanics+electronics both so I can make flashbangs.  For a long time I was simply doing ZERO crafting, but having learned more about crossbows (which I definitely want to use), it seemed like I'd have more fun with some crafting, and am seeking a balance (of effectiveness vs. skillpoint usage vs. fun)

I also don't care for most of the abilities in the 2 other psi schools aside from metathermics.  I mean, not for how I want to play the game that is.  I did spend a good amount of time poring over stuff and considered doing psi-heavy build and whatnot, but it's just not what I want to do.

I want metathermics to be a 2ndary source of damage output.  I feel like with crossbows (and the feats I have with it) and traps where I have them are going to be effective with metathermics as a 2ndary.  At 70 I get Exothermic Aura and wasn't seeing any need to take it beyond that.  Sure, more points gets more out of the tree, and I had initially maxed metathermics but then decided to use those points for crafting.

Oh, and I'm not so much asking about the post-expansion viability of the persuasion+intimidation and am more expressing my intention for there to be reason to have them so high / more things done through the game with them, and am trying to plan accordingly.  If I could get a confirmation of something like "persuasion 100 (142) will grant you access to all dialogue options that have a skillcheck for persuasion" for the current version, I'd have a point of reference.

[Bruno]

I was going to give some constructive criticism, but noticed you are onto an interesting playstyle.

Stick to the shadows, hit the enemy with pyro, then ambush for a healthy dose of critical hits.

You already have critical power and elemental bolts, but man you should take the premeditation feat. AP free pyro in turn 1 is gold for you. Also you really should take sharpshooter, it will give those criticals a whole new meaning.

EDIT: Ah, forget about it, you also need pyromaniac to make those pyros burn - and chance is not guaranteed. But you should still consider premeditation and sharpshooter, with your build.

[drealmer7]

I was going to give some constructive criticism, but noticed you are onto an interesting playstyle.

Stick to the shadows, hit the enemy with pyro, then ambush for a healthy dose of critical hits.

You already have critical power and elemental bolts, but man you should take the premeditation feat. AP free pyro in turn 1 is gold for you. Also you really should take sharpshooter, it will give those criticals a whole new meaning.

EDIT: Ah, forget about it, you also need pyromaniac to make those pyros burn - and chance is not guaranteed. But you should still consider premeditation and sharpshooter, with your build.

Yep!  You have the idea.  and put up traps as a bit of damage doing defense

and yep!  Those are pretty much the other 2 main feats on the table for consideration.  I had had premeditation chosen for a while but then decided on, hmm something else I forget atm.  Sharpshooter didn't seem to have enough % to be worth, but premeditation is very tempting to add.

[TheAverageGortsby]

I'm mostly doing the mechanics+electronics both so I can make flashbangs. 

I want metathermics to be a 2ndary source of damage output.

If I could get a confirmation of something like "persuasion 100 (142) will grant you access to all dialogue options that have a skillcheck for persuasion" for the current version, I'd have a point of reference.

Just three more points here since it looks like you either don't know what I'm saying or don't care, and if it's the former I need to clarify.  If it's the latter, feel free to skip this post =)

1) If you're mostly just doing crafting for flashbangs, then you obviously need to drop the Bowyer feat, and also have a few too many skill points already in the skills.  Pull out points until you have 40 effective Chemistry and 5 effective Mechanics.  Put all the points you've freed up into Metathermics, because...

2) With 99 skill, Metathermics won't be a secondary damage source.  You've picked up Thermodynamicity, which means unless you're wasting feats, you intend to do things like open with Cryokinesis (20AP since you don't have Tranquility), follow with a faster Pyrokinesis (17AP) and then do shooty pewpew stuff.  You've also got Pyromaniac which means you're hoping your Pyrokinesis will set enemies on fire.  It won't, at 99 skill.  See, extra effects like burning are resistable.  Enemies resist extra effects via Resolve or Fortitude (Fort for fire).  Their resist are overpowered in large part by your effective skill with your psi ability.  So at high enemy levels in the later game, 99 effective skill means you'll often not set enemies on fire because they'll resist your secondary effects because you don't have the skill to suppress their Fortitude.  You'd actually be much better off dropping Pyromaniac and putting 30 raw points into Throwing and picking up Grenadier - you'll already have the Chemistry for cooking flashbangs to cook your own improved incendiaries, and they'll do better at setting the world on fire. EDIT: Bleh, I'm going to bed.  I switched your Dex and Agi scores in my head when writing that.  You won't have the Dex for Grenadier so ignore that part.

You also need to get Premeditation.  You just need to.  If nothing else, you Premed your Cryokinesis, take it for 0AP, then get a Thermodynamicity proc on your Pyrokinesis, and have done a targetted shot plus a fiery AoE for 17 total AP.  Or switch it around and get the extra range and 0AP on your Pyro and chill someone if they didn't catch fire.  Whatever.

3) According to destroyor's FAQ, which seems to be highly accurate, there's no Persuasion skill check in the base game higher than 110 effective.  Unless someone with some deep knowledge comes down and calls me out for being wrong, I'd suggest you go ahead and trust destroyor's FAQ.  It's very thoroughly researched and probably about as solid as you'll get without access to the actual game files.  So get your effective Persuasion skill to 110 and you'll be good for the base game.  Given that skill checks are always - thus far - a bit lower than the raw skill cap, you might be okay keeping effective at or under 150 in the expansion content.  Might be.
EDIT: Oh, epeli suggests capping.  Well, he's one of the people who knows way more than I ever will about this game    Do what he says, it's probably right.

[drealmer7]

As far as I know, 135 effective skill should be enough for any static skillcheck in the current game, matching the current level cap of 25. Since Expedition will bump level cap to 30, I think skillchecks could go up to 160.

that's lovely!  thanks very much

I'd love a skill by skill list of the max skillcheck for each skill for 1.) dialogues and then 2.) in-world usage

if only that guide didn't have spoilers!

[Hazard]

Generally speaking, out of the three social skills Intimidation is probably the one most focused on role-playing. In a few quests, the best/most positive possible outcome requires passing a Persuasion check, but for Intimidation I can think of only one such case, and it's a very minor and early quest. Intimidation does have the Yell feat which is pretty okay after your skill level gets high enough, and you can also avoid some fights by scaring would-be robbers and such away during conversations.

I wouldn't take both Persuasion and Intimidation on the same character. It's a lot of points I'd rather use for a crafting or secondary offensive (Throwing or Traps) skill, or really anything in the Subterfuge section.

[drealmer7]

I'm mostly doing the mechanics+electronics both so I can make flashbangs. 

I want metathermics to be a 2ndary source of damage output.

If I could get a confirmation of something like "persuasion 100 (142) will grant you access to all dialogue options that have a skillcheck for persuasion" for the current version, I'd have a point of reference.

Just three more points here since it looks like you either don't know what I'm saying or don't care, and if it's the former I need to clarify.  If it's the latter, feel free to skip this post =)

1) If you're mostly just doing crafting for flashbangs, then you obviously need to drop the Bowyer feat, and also have a few too many skill points already in the skills.  Pull out points until you have 40 effective Chemistry and 5 effective Mechanics.  Put all the points you've freed up into Metathermics, because...

2) With 99 skill, Metathermics won't be a secondary damage source.  You've picked up Thermodynamicity, which means unless you're wasting feats, you intend to do things like open with Cryokinesis (20AP since you don't have Tranquility), follow with a faster Pyrokinesis (17AP) and then do shooty pewpew stuff.  You've also got Pyromaniac which means you're hoping your Pyrokinesis will set enemies on fire.  It won't, at 99 skill.  See, extra effects like burning are resistable.  Enemies resist extra effects via Resolve or Fortitude (Fort for fire).  Their resist are overpowered in large part by your effective skill with your psi ability.  So at high enemy levels in the later game, 99 effective skill means you'll often not set enemies on fire because they'll resist your secondary effects because you don't have the skill to suppress their Fortitude.  You'd actually be much better off dropping Pyromaniac and putting 30 raw points into Throwing and picking up Grenadier - you'll already have the Chemistry for cooking flashbangs to cook your own improved incendiaries, and they'll do better at setting the world on fire. EDIT: Bleh, I'm going to bed.  I switched your Dex and Agi scores in my head when writing that.  You won't have the Dex for Grenadier so ignore that part.

You also need to get Premeditation.  You just need to.  If nothing else, you Premed your Cryokinesis, take it for 0AP, then get a Thermodynamicity proc on your Pyrokinesis, and have done a targetted shot plus a fiery AoE for 17 total AP.  Or switch it around and get the extra range and 0AP on your Pyro and chill someone if they didn't catch fire.  Whatever.

3) According to destroyor's FAQ, which seems to be highly accurate, there's no Persuasion skill check in the base game higher than 110 effective.  Unless someone with some deep knowledge comes down and calls me out for being wrong, I'd suggest you go ahead and trust destroyor's FAQ.  It's very thoroughly researched and probably about as solid as you'll get without access to the actual game files.  So get your effective Persuasion skill to 110 and you'll be good for the base game.  Given that skill checks are always - thus far - a bit lower than the raw skill cap, you might be okay keeping effective at or under 150 in the expansion content.  Might be.
EDIT: Oh, epeli suggests capping.  Well, he's one of the people who knows way more than I ever will about this game    Do what he says, it's probably right.

okay, not JUST flashbangs...

I appreciate you taking the time to post, just so you know, I'm not ignoring you, but some of what you say is stuff that I just kind of *shrug* at because it's not how I want to play or whatever, but it is good to hear the perspective and get an understanding of how some things work.  So, thanks! 

Especially stuff like your #2.  I was thinking simply that damage would be less from my metathermics, not nulled by higher level resistances after a certain point.  Like I said, I did want to max it/take it higher, but I just didn't seem to have the skill points to go around when it came down to it.  What level would you say I should get it to be worthwhile?

I will probably pick up premeditation though, and probably even sharpshooter, past lvl 20 anyway.

[drealmer7]

errrm, what was I seeing before that made me think flashbangs were mechanics+electronics?

hmmm, I need to figure out at what levels I want to get mechanics+electronics to - damnit I wish there were more skill points!