Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?

[MirddinEmris]

Yes, you need 11 for several secret places, one of them is much more important than any other secret place in the game.

If you want to know what exactly, look at the Perception page of the wiki, it's a third row from the bottom in the table of secrets. Don't want to spoil it here. I just say that it'll help to avoid VERY nasty encounter.

[Davaeorn]

I would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy

Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.

Well, thanks again for your sound advice.

I think I will go with what you propose stats-wise but I still have two questions in mind:

- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)

- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?

[MirddinEmris]

- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)

I would recommend keeping at least evasion full, since you are skipping crafting for the most part anyway. It will increase your survivability. With 7 Agi, Nimble, light armor and tabi boots, you'll be pretty hard to hit eventually. Dodge is tad less useful for ranged build, but you can put some points in there and also take Uncanny Dodge to get those automatic misses when you anticipate someone getting in melee with you. I would say that if you want to just wear stealth tac vest, you can even skip tailoring. 30 or so points in electronics will get you Taser (you'll just need to look for components with low enough quality) that can stun enemy in melee for 10 AP once per 3 turns. Solid investment.

I'd say that on Normal with build like this you can really skip crafting and still be pretty effective. So if you do dislike it like you say, go for it)

- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?

I honestly would not recommend pistol without solid investment in crafting. Unfortunately not weapons were created equal, and pistol is much closer to the lower end (and believe me, i'm saying it with bleeding heart, since i love pistols too). And without crafting they are about half as good, which is you can imagine is...not very good at all. So you have to choose between your aversion to crafting and desire to play with pistols.

With pistols you need to take as much special attacks as you can - Aimed Shot, Kneecap Shot, Rapid Fire, Point Shot. They will be you bread and butter. You also should take feats to increase you critical chance and damage - Recklessness, Critical power, Sharpshooter. Don't go for Steadfast Aim, it's a trap. Gunslinger is a must - increase in Intiative and less AP per shot. Paranoia is good since with this and Gunslinger you will almost always shoot first, one of the things that pistols do well and why i love them. As far as crafting goes - you need mechanics and electronics decently high and what you should aim for is .44 Hammerer with Rapid Reloader and Smart Module of as high quality as you can find. You also should wear smart goggles. As far as attribute concerned, they would be almost the same - Dex up to 14 (since you'll be using .44 with RR it's as high as you would need it), Int around 5 or so, so you wouldn't need to overinvest in tech skills, 10 Per and around 7-8 in Agi. I WOULD recommend investing into Evasion and Dodge, especially Evasion

Throwing grenades as secondary is good on almost any build. Grenadier (lower cooldowns) + Three-Pointer (get a grenade chance to crit) are what you need for that and about 50 skill points invested in throwing skill. Grenades come in many aspects - HE against targets with high mech resist, Frag against most things, Flashbangs to incapacitate group of enemies, EMP to damage and stun robots, gas to apply lasting debuffs and damage. They are really cool and effective. Could be incorporated in the pistol build also.

Well, that's about it. Hope i was of any help. Good luck and enjoy the game, it's not a perfect one but pretty good at scratching that "old school" itch)

[Davaeorn]

I honestly would not recommend pistol without solid investment in crafting. Unfortunately not weapons were created equal, and pistol is much closer to the lower end (and believe me, i'm saying it with bleeding heart, since i love pistols too). And without crafting they are about half as good, which is you can imagine is...not very good at all. So you have to choose between your aversion to crafting and desire to play with pistols.


Well, that's about it. Hope i was of any help. Good luck and enjoy the game, it's not a perfect one but pretty good at scratching that "old school" itch)

Ok, thanks again.

I feel like I have made my decision then:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC


To bring this thread to a close, would that build carry me through?

[MirddinEmris]

Ok, thanks again.

I feel like I have made my decision then:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC


To bring this thread to a close, would that build carry me through?

Hm. I would drop Executioner, it is a special attack, but a pretty bad one - first, it only works against stunned or incapacitated targets, second, you need to be pretty close to fire it. You probably should find a way to get Sharpshooter into your build (i would drop either Escape Artist or Execute). To get most of the Critical Power you need decent critical damage bonus and for pistols it's basically the only way to do it. Without it your Hammerer will have 125% crit damage bonus, 162.5% with Critical Power. With it you will have 155% critical damage bonus, 237.5% with Critical Power. Difference is pretty big.

65 points in tailoring will get almost nothing you wouldn't be able to buy/loot even without mercantile. So they should be put somewhere else. Biology is a good choice - with this much you will be able to craft Focus Stim, blueprint of which is always sold in core city, it gives you +15% crit chance for 10 turns. Also stuff like Jumping bean that increases your dodge/evasion and movement.

Also, 135 in pickpocketing? Not sure if you'll ever need this much) Money is almost never an issue except early game. I'd say put some of those point into traps. Like 40 or so.

Oh, and another thing. Besides .44 hammerer, you'll need 5mm Neo Luger with Silencer and Smart module. Not as effective as smart SMG, but you'll still be able to kill one, maybe two enemies on one turn, so it'll still be useful for stealthy kills.

Stack up on W2C ammo with every chance you got. High mech resist is your worst enemy.

[Leviathan]

I would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy

Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.

Well, thanks again for your sound advice.

I think I will go with what you propose stats-wise but I still have two questions in mind:

- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)

- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?

first off pistols effective only in hands of untrained charaters and they cost a lot to be effective, if you really want a good firepower and stealth you should go crossbows or throwing knifes

crafting is vital in every stage of game but crafting takes important role in mid game to achieve better gear than you may find in shops or from bodies

rapid fire is almost useless if you picked spec ops feat

most vital feats for ninja build is nimble (minus 15% armor penalty plus armor class buff) AND uncanny dodge (gives you 100% chance to dodge melee attacks) and evasive maneuvres (converts all MP into evasive skill)

for offensive skill tree you need a smg and a aimed shot (100% crit) kneecap shot (bleed + severe MP penalty) commando (lets you do another burst after kill) and blitz as emergency abillity, about gun pick an steel cat 7.62 or 8.6, install smart module and laser/compesator for best spray and pray gun. Also jaguar is a choice with 5mm, rapid reloader and smart module for best sprayning

OR pick crossbow, marksman (special bolts take no AP) quick pockets AND utility belt (they are vital as good crossbow) take aimed shot feat, kneecap shot and concussive shots for delayning enemy, when you go mid-end game pick elemental bolts and vile weaponry. Keep in mind that crossbows cost a lot in early game and require crafting but in mid game you likey will not have problems with money and ammo

about gear pick NVGS with smart lens (or with adaptive), ninja/hopper tabi boots, tazer as emergency weapon and any stealth tactical vest, they provide good armor against bullets but only one type of resistance, so be prepared to carry a spare vest

[Leviathan]

also dont forgot caltrops, flashbangs, tazers, molotovs, electrics and fire bolts, they provide good area denial in most situations

[Davaeorn]

first off pistols effective only in hands of untrained charaters and they cost a lot to be effective, if you really want a good firepower and stealth you should go crossbows or throwing knifes

crafting is vital in every stage of game but crafting takes important role in mid game to achieve better gear than you may find in shops or from bodies

rapid fire is almost useless if you picked spec ops feat

most vital feats for ninja build is nimble (minus 15% armor penalty plus armor class buff) AND uncanny dodge (gives you 100% chance to dodge melee attacks) and evasive maneuvres (converts all MP into evasive skill)

for offensive skill tree you need a smg and a aimed shot (100% crit) kneecap shot (bleed + severe MP penalty) commando (lets you do another burst after kill) and blitz as emergency abillity, about gun pick an steel cat 7.62 or 8.6, install smart module and laser/compesator for best spray and pray gun. Also jaguar is a choice with 5mm, rapid reloader and smart module for best sprayning

OR pick crossbow, marksman (special bolts take no AP) quick pockets AND utility belt (they are vital as good crossbow) take aimed shot feat, kneecap shot and concussive shots for delayning enemy, when you go mid-end game pick elemental bolts and vile weaponry. Keep in mind that crossbows cost a lot in early game and require crafting but in mid game you likey will not have problems with money and ammo

about gear pick NVGS with smart lens (or with adaptive), ninja/hopper tabi boots, tazer as emergency weapon and any stealth tactical vest, they provide good armor against bullets but only one type of resistance, so be prepared to carry a spare vest

Thanks for your advice but as stated above I am willing to make the investment to go into pistols over SMGs.

Ofc I am open to any suggestions or improvements regarding the build-link I posted above.

[Bruno]

I honestly would not recommend pistol without solid investment in crafting. Unfortunately not weapons were created equal, and pistol is much closer to the lower end (and believe me, i'm saying it with bleeding heart, since i love pistols too). And without crafting they are about half as good, which is you can imagine is...not very good at all. So you have to choose between your aversion to crafting and desire to play with pistols.


Well, that's about it. Hope i was of any help. Good luck and enjoy the game, it's not a perfect one but pretty good at scratching that "old school" itch)

Ok, thanks again.

I feel like I have made my decision then:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC


To bring this thread to a close, would that build carry me through?

Okay, you are on to something, but I would consider the following points if I were you:

-Interloper
Lvl2+ feat, requires 7 agility, 20 stealth. Reduces your stealth movement penalty from 45% to 30% I think, and let you retain 15 movement points when you enter combat from stealth, instead of zero.
This is not mandatory for you, as you have an insanely high initiative and should preferably initiate combat without stealth (so you have all your MPs) when you can. However: if you find that you get really tired of the low walking speed in stealth, it is a great quality of life feat. You can save at a levelup, and try it out for a bit to see if you like it.

-Sharpshooter
You want it, as stated above. With critical power, you will get great aimed shots and ambushes. You can take it rather late.

-Execute
I would skip it. If you can immobilize someone at close range, they are pretty much toast anyway. Use rapid fire instead to deal great damage at close range, and save a feat.

-Grenadier
Awesome for you, good that you have it - as you play you will realize that you need those grenades, a lot. 2 turn cooldown instrad of 4 turns is huge, get it at the first opportunity, lvl 4.


Ability points:
Looking good, but perhaps move a point each from INT and AGI over to PER, to increase perception to 11-12. Accuracy is pretty vital for you, as well as increased damage. You will find out if you are comfortable with 10, but is is a bit on the low side for my taste. Also, perception helps with detection, synergy with Paranoia. And you got no traps skill and 3 CON... you want to spot those traps, even with good evasion they will tear you to shreds if you step on the wrong landmine.

But in general you are looking good. The benefit of pistols is your great initiative, so make sure you use your first turn to your best advantage (= chuck your favourite grenade at your enemies and finish the most dangerous enemy first, then retreat into cover)

[TheAverageGortsby]

Strange, it seems like you are saying that in case of other calibers SMGs are not always superior to pistols. But you can't be saying that. That would be madness.

I think you could make a case for a Hammerer.  5mm does so little damage per shot that you're at the mercy of resist/threshold even with W2C, but a Hammerer, especially a crafted one, is going to pump out enough damage that a special attack will blow through even very high resistances in a way that even burst fire from a SMG won't.  I still haven't played enough with specific handgun builds to argue this point strongly, but I do think that a case can be made for the 9mm and .44 Hammerer being buildable to have superior performance in special cases.  And of course, with the right skills, feats, and positioning, you can arrange to have special cases arise several times each fight.

But as I mentioned to you earlier in a different thread, my only gun Dominating run was SMG, so I am a proponent of the general superiority of them.  I just suspect you can do some very nice things with the right pistol if you've set it up properly.

Ofc I am open to any suggestions or improvements regarding the build-link I posted above.

If you're interested in squeezing a few points out of that build, aside from taking about 50 real points out of Pickpocketing as Mirddin suggested, you've got about 20 more points in Lockpicking than you strictly need.  You'll find a small, lightweight knife in your travels that will somewhat improve your ability to pop open locks, and you'll find many lockpicks which will help as well.  Plus you may discover that you want to buy and carry around a bunch of food.  The stat buffs food offers are very handy when things get tough.  47 real points in Tailoring with 5INT gets you 50 effective Tailoring, which is what you want if you're taking Tailoring for making the improved repair kits.

[Davaeorn]

Okay, you are on to something, but I would consider the following points if I were you:

-Interloper
Lvl2+ feat, requires 7 agility, 20 stealth. Reduces your stealth movement penalty from 45% to 30% I think, and let you retain 15 movement points when you enter combat from stealth, instead of zero.
This is not mandatory for you, as you have an insanely high initiative and should preferably initiate combat without stealth (so you have all your MPs) when you can. However: if you find that you get really tired of the low walking speed in stealth, it is a great quality of life feat. You can save at a levelup, and try it out for a bit to see if you like it.

-Sharpshooter
You want it, as stated above. With critical power, you will get great aimed shots and ambushes. You can take it rather late.

-Execute
I would skip it. If you can immobilize someone at close range, they are pretty much toast anyway. Use rapid fire instead to deal great damage at close range, and save a feat.

-Grenadier
Awesome for you, good that you have it - as you play you will realize that you need those grenades, a lot. 2 turn cooldown instrad of 4 turns is huge, get it at the first opportunity, lvl 4.


Ability points:
Looking good, but perhaps move a point each from INT and AGI over to PER, to increase perception to 11-12. Accuracy is pretty vital for you, as well as increased damage. You will find out if you are comfortable with 10, but is is a bit on the low side for my taste. Also, perception helps with detection, synergy with Paranoia. And you got no traps skill and 3 CON... you want to spot those traps, even with good evasion they will tear you to shreds if you step on the wrong landmine.

But in general you are looking good. The benefit of pistols is your great initiative, so make sure you use your first turn to your best advantage (= chuck your favourite grenade at your enemies and finish the most dangerous enemy first, then retreat into cover)

Ok, but what would you skip if I am to take Interloper for example. You only crossed out Execute, but suggested two new feats to put in.

What is your opinion on the viability of stealth without all the stealth feats? The larger caliber pistols can't be silenced anyways, so I am thinking...

I think you could make a case for a Hammerer.

I see. From what I've read from the Wiki Hammerer can't be silenced because it's not 5mm caliber.
Won't this render my whole stealth approach useless?

Would you therefore recommend to move some points from stealth over to chemistry for grenade crafting or electronics for the EMP stuff?

[TheAverageGortsby]

I see. From what I've read from the Wiki Hammerer can't be silenced because it's not 5mm caliber.
Won't this render my whole stealth approach useless?

Would you therefore recommend to move some points from stealth over to chemistry for grenade crafting or electronics for the EMP stuff?

Sorry, that first part wasn't meant for you.  I was splitting that post between replying to Mirddin and replying to you.  Others have given you good advice about your choice of weapons, and your build looked pretty good.  I was just pointing out that if you wanted to free up some points to do other things, you had a few places where you have more points invested than you need.

I know the game pretty well as psi, but I'm not the expert about gun builds.  You seem to have a good idea for your character, and if you really are planning to play on Normal, then you'll do just fine.  Normal difficulty will maybe kill you a few times until you know what to expect, but it's forgiving enough that you don't have to optimize too heavily if you don't want.

I'll give you a spoiler-free bit of non-character advice, though - rekindle those old-school habits of saving your game in different slots.  There are two points in the game where you can really put yourself in a no-return kind of situation.  It's the worst bit of design in the game because it isn't clear enough that you won't have a way out if you continue following the story.  One point is in Core City.  The other is in the Institute.  Don't just rely on quicksave/autosave.  More than one person has shown up on the Steam forums, saying they uninstalled UnderRail in anger because they got stuck with no way to recover.

[hilf]

As others said, lower your Pickpocketing. Hardest check i know of needs about 120 and is unnecessary for someone with that high hacking. I wouldn't go over 100 effective skill.

You can also take a few points from Hacking to leave it at 130. You want that much without any hacking tool for hardest check.

[Davaeorn]

Sorry, that first part wasn't meant for you.  I was splitting that post between replying to Mirddin and replying to you.  Others have given you good advice about your choice of weapons, and your build looked pretty good.  I was just pointing out that if you wanted to free up some points to do other things, you had a few places where you have more points invested than you need.

It was useful information to me anyways so I still want to know:

Considering my build I have already planned out a heavy investment into pistol feats so it would be kind of dumb not to take the best weapon available for my build, wouldn't it?

My question therefore is if it's still worth investing into stealth this much if the weapon cannot be silenced or does it contradict the idea of stealth gameplay?

I'll give you a spoiler-free bit of non-character advice, though - rekindle those old-school habits of saving your game in different slots.  There are two points in the game where you can really put yourself in a no-return kind of situation.  It's the worst bit of design in the game because it isn't clear enough that you won't have a way out if you continue following the story.  One point is in Core City.  The other is in the Institute.  Don't just rely on quicksave/autosave.  More than one person has shown up on the Steam forums, saying they uninstalled UnderRail in anger because they got stuck with no way to recover.

I will do this.
I've read already about this on destroyor's steam FAQ guide but thank you very much for the reminder.

As others said, lower your Pickpocketing. Hardest check i know of needs about 120 and is unnecessary for someone with that high hacking. I wouldn't go over 100 effective skill.

You can also take a few points from Hacking to leave it at 130. You want that much without any hacking tool for hardest check.

Thank you. I will optimize according to your suggestions.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Considering my build I have already planned out a heavy investment into pistol feats so it would be kind of dumb not to take the best weapon available for my build, wouldn't it?

My question therefore is if it's still worth investing into stealth this much if the weapon cannot be silenced or does it contradict the idea of stealth gameplay?

Yes, invest into stealth.  Stealth is a very powerful tool.  Your character has two hands.  You can hold a stealthy weapon in one hand, and a loud weapon in the other.  Once a fight is well underway, especially if you've used a grenade or something, you've made so much noise that it doesn't much matter how loud your gun is.  So have one weapon for pewpew and another for ending things fast and loud.