Smg, trap and stealth, (maybe throwing) bad or viable, too spread out?

[kakalbo123]

I've played this game for 16-17 hours or so on a psi-trap build until the game wiped my save just yesterday. Despite feeling bitter I'm thinking of making a new character that doesn't use psi just to keep things fresh. Depot A was challenging but it felt rewarding when I managed to return with the quest item, it was all possible because of some crafty trap placements. As such I'd love to know how viable an SMG/Trap build is.

I've been browsing builds and discussions about it, was weighing in on Pistol, AR and SMG and decided to probably settle for SMGs. However, I have yet to see a build guide dedicated to playing the game on smg traps and stealth, therefore, I have some clarifications:

1.) Regarding stats for an SMG build I've seen people put more on DEX than PER, is this based on preference or mandatory? I understand that it allows you to do burst 3 times... that's pretty much what I understood.

2.) If I'm not planning on going plate armor, I'm assuming stealth builds still rely on points in both dodge and evasion during encounters, correct? (I went 8 con on my psi and no points to either dodge or evasion, so IDK if dumping con means I have to invest on both dodge and evasion or just have to play smart)

3.) I got used to baiting enemies to traps (my own or theirs, e.g. Depot A) to get the full advantage in an encounter and triggering them with pyrokinesis, what do gun users have that can reliably trigger traps accurately and safely? Does putting throwing to 30 allow me to reliably or at least safely trigger traps? (I'm leaning on wanting to throw grenades as well to get the most out of spec-ops, so I might have to put throwing at some point)

4.) I'm planning to go 3 str, 8 dex, 6 agi, 5 con (safety, I guess) 10 per, 3 will and 5 int. Should I switch Dex and Per? I'm not familiar with the feats for gun builds so I'm open to your recommendations, might take pack rat as mandatory though. I won't be taking pickpocket but I'm wondering if mercantilism is worth the investment? 5 int so I don't get penalties for investing in the technology skills.

5.) Must have feats in the first 10 levels?



Sorry if my formatting sucks, it's my first time lmao, I suppose you could treat me as a noob considering psi and guns are pretty different.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Honestly, if you have yet to see a stealth SMG build guide, you're not looking very hard.  The Spec Ops SMG Commando is a very well-established build in UnderRail.  It's powerful, it's flexible, and it doesn't need more than about six feats to do really well so you've got plenty of room to try other stuff too.  The only real drawback is OMG SO MUCH AMMO COST, meaning it's especially difficult on DOMINATING.

Yes, more DEX than PER. Yes, Dodge and Evasion (and therefore also Nimble).  Yes grenades, all the grenades, so many grenades (and therefore also Grenadier).  5 in a stat is a rookie mistake most of the time - you're not going to succeed at tasks with 5 in a stat that you couldn't succeed at with 3, and those 2 stat points are better off going somewhere more useful.  So I'd suggest either drop Int to 3 and raise Dex or Con, or drop Con and accept that you're going to be very squishy, and put another point or two in Int to free up a lot of skill points (you're going to want Mechanics, Chemistry, Biology, Tailoring, and Mercantile at a bare minimum so there're five skills that scale off of Int - six if you plan to pick up Hacking).  4 is the zero-penalty breakpoint for skills, not 5.

[kakalbo123]

How forgiving is underrail if say we partially follow a build but try to be independent and experimental at normal difficulty? I read before that Depot A should test how viable the build you're doing is but some say that it's just challenging and shouldn't be used as a benchmark.

[Ymiraku]

Honestly, if you have yet to see a stealth SMG build guide, you're not looking very hard.  The Spec Ops SMG Commando is a very well-established build in UnderRail.  It's powerful, it's flexible, and it doesn't need more than about six feats to do really well so you've got plenty of room to try other stuff too.  The only real drawback is OMG SO MUCH AMMO COST, meaning it's especially difficult on DOMINATING.

Yes, more DEX than PER. Yes, Dodge and Evasion (and therefore also Nimble).  Yes grenades, all the grenades, so many grenades (and therefore also Grenadier).  5 in a stat is a rookie mistake most of the time - you're not going to succeed at tasks with 5 in a stat that you couldn't succeed at with 3, and those 2 stat points are better off going somewhere more useful.  So I'd suggest either drop Int to 3 and raise Dex or Con, or drop Con and accept that you're going to be very squishy, and put another point or two in Int to free up a lot of skill points (you're going to want Mechanics, Chemistry, Biology, Tailoring, and Mercantile at a bare minimum so there're five skills that scale off of Int - six if you plan to pick up Hacking).  4 is the zero-penalty breakpoint for skills, not 5.

Can you get by without crafting with smg build and just put int to 4 so that you dont get penalised? and is it worth 4 points in constitution over 3 for a bit more health?

[TheAverageGortsby]

Can you get by without crafting with smg build and just put int to 4 so that you dont get penalised?

Why would you do that?  If you're not going to craft or take Premeditation/Expose Weakness/Versatility, why would you have any Int score other than 3?  Never set a score to 4.  4 is always the wrong value for a stat in UnderRail.

"But you've recommended 4 Perception in builds before!" "4 Str is ideal for snipers relying on Rathound BBQ, scrub!" Sure, there are a couple situations where 4 is OK for a stat, but if you don't know exactly what those situations are, and why they are good situations for a 4, then just assume that 4 is always wrong.  You'll learn better, in time.

How forgiving is underrail if say we partially follow a build but try to be independent and experimental at normal difficulty? I read before that Depot A should test how viable the build you're doing is but some say that it's just challenging and shouldn't be used as a benchmark.

You'll be fine on Normal. Any non-CE* build, no matter how bad, can get through Normal if it's played by someone willing to try to learn from their mistakes.  So you can experiment to your heart's content. Most of the time, most builds will have a good bit of wiggle room anyway.  In the case of Depot A, if you're having a really hard time, just go wander around, pick up a level, and find, buy, or craft a bunch of traps and grenades.  A sufficient quantity of high explosives will resolve almost any problem in UnderRail.

*Yes, if you use Cheat Engine you can probably drop all your stats and skills to 0 and manage to cheat your way into a build that can't succeed, but you've got nobody but yourself to blame for that, if you do it.

[Ymiraku]

okay thanks for clearing that up. just wondering if you can make a decent smg character without crafting

[TheAverageGortsby]

okay thanks for clearing that up. just wondering if you can make a decent smg character without crafting

Ah, sorry, then I misread the question. I was focusing on the 4 Int part >.>

Crafting is so much better than using bought/looted gear that it's really tough to justify not at least picking up Mechanics so you can make a gun. Don't wanna make custom ammo? OK.  Don't wanna make grenades and traps? OK.  Don't wanna make medicines and shield generators and cloaking devices? OK.  But man, getting through the game, as a gunner, without a crafted gun and a taser? That's just making UnderRail a lot harder than it really needs to be.

Yes, you can do it. Yes, you can make a good SMG character with no crafting at all.  But if you can find some points to spare, you can make a better SMG character with a healthy dose of Mechanics and a touch of Electronics.

[kakalbo123]

5 in a stat is a rookie mistake most of the time - you're not going to succeed at tasks with 5 in a stat that you couldn't succeed at with 3, and those 2 stat points are better off going somewhere more useful.  So I'd suggest either drop Int to 3 and raise Dex or Con, or drop Con and accept that you're going to be very squishy, and put another point or two in Int to free up a lot of skill points (you're going to want Mechanics, Chemistry, Biology, Tailoring, and Mercantile at a bare minimum so there're five skills that scale off of Int - six if you plan to pick up Hacking).

What makes con "dump-able?" I've been seeing videos of SMG builds that don't use steel armor, is it the shield or the dodge/evasion? mix of both? Also saw a post that affirms that beating the game is doable at dumped con and no points to dodge/evasion, although I reckon it takes great familiarity of the game mechanics to do so which I don't possess atm.

You also suggested either I pump 7 to int or I make it a dump stat, is it safe to interpret that despite the handicap of having 3 int, this only means that maybe up to the mid-game I'll suffer penalties to the crafting stats which otherwise is negligible in the late game? I'm a little torn on how to invest on my stats at this point after considering your guidance, I've dumped str, con and wil but idk if agi should be 6 or 7 and perception 8 or 9 and if int should be at 6 or 7. Dex at this point is 10. From what I saw of other guides dex is pumped until 14 or 15 (14 then food is apparently viable)

If I'm following you, either dump or pump into a stat and never go for a safety 4 or 5 to off-set penalty, correct?

[TheAverageGortsby]

What makes con "dump-able?"

is it safe to interpret that despite the handicap of having 3 int, this only means that maybe up to the mid-game I'll suffer penalties to the crafting stats which otherwise is negligible in the late game? I'm a little torn on how to invest on my stats at this point

If I'm following you, either dump or pump into a stat and never go for a safety 4 or 5 to off-set penalty, correct?

Yeah, I'm trying not to give you a cookie cutter and just tell you to press it into the dough, but that does mean I may be giving you enough options to be largely unhelpful.

OK.  Con is dumpable when you either have a way to not get hit, or a way to not take dangerous damage when you get hit.  You can not get hit by attacking from range; by alpha striking so hard you murder everything before it can go; by exploiting line-of-sight against ranged enemies and physical space against melee enemies; by reducing the ability of enemies to successfully hit when they attack; by preventing the enemy from seeing you to attack you.  You can take no dangerous damage when you get hit by having excellent armor against whatever damage type is hitting you; by having very high-capacity energy shields; by using Aegis and Morphine; by having such an immense HP pool that damage is largely irrelevant (aka playing on Easy).  You see, there are a lot of options for what sounds like a very simple thing.  If you want to play a stealthy SMG type, you're going to need to leverage stealth (no use against robots and true-sighted enemies), dodge/evasion (not deterministically reliable but useful to limit damage to spikes rather than plateaus), line of sight/physical distance, and energy shields.  Maybe also Aegis/Morphine.  If you can envision a game play concept where you will always be able to do at least two of those things then you can safely dump Con.

As you go through the game, you will eventually be offered a house in Core City.  There will be many options for you, when you have that house - but one set of those options will include moving in workbenches which will provide a +15% buff to your effective crafting skills.  At 3 Int, you can still get high enough effective skills to craft whatever you need, in your house - especially if you have access to Hypercerebrix (brief +2 Int buff).  With low Int, all you really lose access to are crafting feats, but for a gunner, that's not a huge deal since Gun Nut is notoriously underperforming, and Skinner/Clothier/Ballistics are all very modest improvements, at best.  Since you only have three skills that you really need to max out (Guns, Dodge, Evasion), and a few more that need less than half investment to cap their actual usefulness (Hacking, Lockpicking, Traps, Mercantile, Throwing) you'll have enough points that you can spend (skill points) your way to crafting success despite having an effective skill penalty.

Correct.  UnderRail hugely rewards specialization and min/maxing of stats.  Be good at something, or be really, really bad at it.

[Ymiraku]

Just wondering, is it worth speccing into crafting skills (mechanics, tailoring, electronics) if I dump int to 3? or is it best to drop a bit of perception etc. and instead put 6 points into intel?

[kakalbo123]

Just wondering, is it worth speccing into crafting skills (mechanics, tailoring, electronics) if I dump int to 3? or is it best to drop a bit of perception etc. and instead put 6 points into intel?

From what TheAverageGortsby said, you'll get delayed due to the penalties, but pretty much what a 3 int will only miss is the feats that come with high int. High ints reach the crafting level desired earlier than chumps with lower int. 

EDIT: Assuming of course, this is not a psi build.

[Bruno]

I advice against setting your INT to 3 if you spend many of your total skill points on INT dependent skills.

In effect you will not be able to craft anything useful except trinkets, before late game.

Do yourself a favor and set INT to something like 7 if you want to craft useful stuff, like a decent gun or a powerful enegy shield. Then you can also take the Power Management feat.

There is a game before you get access to late game stuff as well. Let it be a good experience.
Also, there is no house to craft in, in Deep Caverns. There you are reliant on effective skill only.

[Ymiraku]

I advice against setting your INT to 3 if you spend many of your total skill points on INT dependent skills.

In effect you will not be able to craft anything useful except trinkets, before late game.

Do yourself a favor and set INT to something like 7 if you want to craft useful stuff, like a decent gun or a powerful enegy shield. Then you can also take the Power Management feat.

There is a game before you get access to late game stuff as well. Let it be a good experience.
Also, there is no house to craft in, in Deep Caverns. There you are reliant on effective skill only.

I ended it up putting it on 6, but now reading your post i kinda regret it. is power management mainly so that you can craft an energy shield which is 35% stronger? Thanks for the advice btw. Would be nice if the game had a respec option, but i guess that is isn't oldschool lol

[kakalbo123]

I myself went for four int but don't tell Gortsby 

I needed went for 10 perception instead of 9 since I read that burst acc sucks and you need to compensate with as much perception as you can. I do see the point of having more dex tho, I can't even burst twice after firing this jaguar i got.

[Ymiraku]

I myself went for four int but don't tell Gortsby 

I needed went for 10 perception instead of 9 since I read that burst acc sucks and you need to compensate with as much perception as you can. I do see the point of having more dex tho, I can't even burst twice after firing this jaguar i got.

have you got spec ops yet? you should be able to burst at least 3 times with a jaguar with good dex.

But yeah the accuracy is an issue, i have mods so 25% burst precision and unless im right in front of the enemy, half the bullets miss, even with 8 perception. im not sure that another 2 points will make that much difference though, maybe a little. playing smg build is fun but it feels a bit weak compared to psi builds and assault rifle heavy armor builds and snipers