Need opinion/criticism on my psi-monk build

[kakalbo123]

Having beaten the game on normal/oddity with smg+stealth

I plan to make an unarmed dex psi-monk for my second playthrough on hard/classic xp. It will be no gloves just fist + TM (70 cap) and Psychokinesis, aiming for a 4ap per hit build at 3 str 10 dex 10 agi 3 con 3 per 5 wil 6 int. Later on it will be 12 dex and either 7 int or 7 wil depending on your opinion.

Looking at the build of one named Ken Molinaro on youtube who's been playing with an unarmed time-monk. He never bothered maxing the dodge and evasion the same way you would normally max out important skills every level up. He is however playing on hard and that I believe he's still investing on them but not prioritizing them.

My first question is this:

Playing on Hard without stealth, obviously, I'd have to brute force my way on every encounters since no stealth investment won't allow me to avoid combat.

Is it essential that I max dodge and evasion every time I level up? To be complemented by dodge/evasion boosting items + nimble or can I make do without doing so and the excess skill points to be invested in other skills? From Ken Molinaro's youtube videos, he maximized avoiding damage by using fancy footwork to create distance against his enemies.

My second question:

Would it be alright, given that I will have points in dexterity and int, to safely invest enough points in lockpick and hacking so that the bonus skill value is at the amount of the maximum base skill allocatable instead of increasing the base skill to max? Basically I'll rely on higher-level haxxor and lockpicks in case I have trouble unlocking them.

My third question:

Despite playing on hard, I still wish to experience what I missed with my first playthrough since it was a no persuasion run. As such, with regard to min-maxing dodge/evasion and lockpick/hacking I plan to invest "excess" skill points in persuasion and crafting skills. Any thoughts on the ratio of persuasion per level that I should have? Is having persuasion at all still viable or a game-breaking waste on hard?

Anyway, this is an idea of the build that I have, it's kinda rough around the edges, I just level it at 12 as I frankly don't have a clue on what feats to get for the next levels, I haven't even placed packrathound in there.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?DAMMCgMDBQcAFQBGRkYAPC0AAABGAAAOAEYARgAAACskTyggEyoSB9-_ (capped at level 12 atm, for easier consideration, I also think early-mid game build would be important to factor as it makes or breaks how the game would be)

Regarding certain feats, how is improved unarmed combat and cheapshots? Improved unarmed combat seems like a feat to have but seems to be overshadowed early on by the "must-have feats" and unarmed's crit chance of 5% seems low to benefit effectively from cheap shots.

I found my smg-stealth boring in a manner that there isn't a lot of feats to consider as the build is effective already from a select number of feats, after looking at a possible playthrough for this I was amazed with the amount of feats to consider.

[cypherusuh]

For starter, you need 14 DEX+tabi boots+Lightning Punch or minimum AP, my recommended starting  base stats is 3/10/8/3/3/7/6, then put the rest of stats on dex. Always take Force User at lv 4, and Premeditation at 6.

1. If you want to have light armor, then max dodge/evasion + nimble is recommended, especially on 3 Con character. For fancy footwork, it's better to go aggressive, by the time you finished Depot A, you should be able to kill non-robot really quickly, you could probably managed to get 3 kill per turn

2. Always min-max your hacking/lockpick unless you want to stop on certain level. The general  effective skill phase is Depot A 50,rail crossing 70, corecity 85. You could use higher tier lockpick/haxxor, since there's very few high requirement. Lemurian Engineer suit, jackknife, stats booster and underpie could helps if you want to very minmax it on stats-hungry build

3. You could probably a little bit of persuasion, although it'll make early game skill distribution quite strict and your crafting skill might lag behind. If I remember correctly, there's list of Social Skill somewhere, could check Google. The "important" softcap is 60 persuasion up to rail crossing. The SGS help for gang showdowns requires 45 if you choose to "stay neutral", or 50 if you hate praetorian.

For feat, improved unarmed only affect bare fist. The must-have feat would be lightning punch and Expose Weakness. Taste for Blood is also fun. Cheap shot is great due to incapacitate chance, crit bonus is just cherry on top. It's also possible to do crit psi-monk, although you probably need Survival Instinct to helps with crit chance, which sacrificed your Agi 3 and Int 5. If you don't wanna go crit, Expertise is pretty good.

Fist, sledgehammer and pure psi is probably the most fun build for beginner, since they're quite straightforward and there's loads of feat to assist.

BTW just in case if you got annoyed with robot, makes sure to grab Combo around lv 14 / 16 and use pneumatic mod. Max psychokinesis should be able to handle most of the robot, too

[kakalbo123]

My impression with going combat gloveless for my unarmed build is that it takes away having to invest in mechanics early on. However, is it a viable alternative to go gloveless and just raw fists complemented primarily by force emission/proxy or am I in for a difficult time? With combat gloves, is it still possible to reach 4ap? (Just clarifying this one), it feels like with tabi + lightning punches and 12 dex by level 12 it feels like I still won't reach 4ap by then? So it's a longer investment? I'm not sure on this one.

Is the -1 force emission cost the primary reason I'm getting force user or is it the wall up-time or the overall utility it gives to the early psychokinesis abilities?

Should I leave out paranoia for packrathound at level 2? I feel like Depot A's mine fields will force me to save and load a lot without it.

Regarding cheap shots, it feels like the next 5 feats after level 2 are very important to be locked in early on. Maybe a level 14/16 feat instead? Is it that good even with the daze alone?

[cypherusuh]

You could find loads of combat gloves on GMS area, and it cost practically nothing on early game. By the time you fixed your lock/hack/persuasion stats, you should be able to catch up with the mechanics and electronics (although I recommend 25 effective mechanic before GMS for recycle + elevator fix. It'll saves you a lot of time if you like to hoard everything. Also, I'd recommend to rush The Claw, it's really good vs non-robot

Bare fist is kinda shit, you could kill some rathound, but you'll have a hard time against anything with leather armor, it's doable but it's on Arbitrary Challenge category. Check on Dexterity wiki page, there's AP cost table there. It's not necessarily a long haul, since your AP will be quite low even after Lightning Punch + tabi

Force User is just so damn good, plus you maxed psychokinesis anyway, your TK punch will kill any living being. -1 cost and the wall is a huge plus, too.

For detection, don't worry about it. Trap placement is not random. You could memorize it after few run, and by the time you got to Camp Hathor, you should be able to buy / find motion-detection goggles, it's enough to reveal most trap in the game if you wait few seconds, adds the food buff for quicker detection. I'd say that between those 2, I'd pick pack rathound due to massive QoL on low STR char, it's practically 40% increase of weight limit. Also, base detection increased as your level increased, low level means low base, which only gives small bonus on paranoia. Even on higher level, motion-detection goggles + food is probably enough

Cheap shot gives Incapacitated status, not daze. It's basically stun, but removed if you hit them. It can be a life saver, but you can hold it or drop it, since there's other better way to disable, I.e psychokinesis skills and taser. Dirty Kick might be good, but I usually feels it's a bit overkill, since I don't really need much disable outside of psykokinesis skills until lv 18. Everything just melt around turn 1-3, and flashbang/emp is good enough

[kakalbo123]

Very insightful feedback so far.

I realized that I have to start at 6 int for premeditation, however I'm not sure if I should compromise on agi to lower it and go for 7 will for force user. Is force user worth it more than getting blitz with 10 agi vs lower agi but 7 will?

 I reckon I'll have to invest in dex until I can get 4ap on the claw/combat gloves, but that seems like a long haul given the dex requirement for 4ap, 5-6ap is manageable though. Looking at it further it seems that most of the variants of the combat gloves apart from the steel have 12ap. At 16 dex + 1 food, tabi and lightning punches I'll be able to get 4ap per hit on a 12ap combat gloves. If I'm looking at it correctly, I can expect 10+2 dex on or after Depot A. Which if I can get a tabi from the vendor the black eels send you to near GMS + lightning punches it'll be 6ap at that point.

On the subject of combat gloves, are these like gun frames that they each provide a unique bonus suited for their playstyle or do people generally stop using the leather combat gloves by late game? I never got to try out tailoring that much, regarding crafting I only crafted grenades and smg frames on my first playthrough as I never needed anything else, idk but Aran's armor was sufficient enough in DC.

I too like the gimmick behind dirty kick, although there are just too many feats to consider that some seem to be more practical than others, especially early on.

Are cheap shots proc reliable enough to consider getting opportunist? A huge chunk of my smg damage came from the persistent pros of opportunist via suppressive fire.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?DAMNCgMDBQYAFABGMkYAOikAAAA9AAAAAEYARjIAAE8kKycgEyoSB9-_ I did a little revision, regarding the skills it was mostly to what I'll need the most and available from early on. However, between level 10 and 12, I'm stuck between getting blitz, combo and expose weakness. What are your thoughts on the skill investment on this one? If I take out persuasion I can definitely put more into electronics and even mechanics. However, I'd love an alternative playthrough with persuasion to keep things fresh.

[cypherusuh]

Force User worth far more than Blitz. Imo, that feat is extremely situational on certain build, since you could get Psycho-Temporal Contraption, which gives better buff and you only need 55 base Temporal Manipulation (can be increased further with feat, 15AP - > 20 AP bonus for 3 turn),with adrenaline, you have 90 AP, that's a lot. Also, don't forget that higher will increased your psi, which in turn, increased your overall fist DPS (although 7 will is good enough, don't really need to boost it further)

More or less. Tbh 4 AP punch is basically the meme-tier target, you'll do just fine with lightning punch + tabi, just enjoy the ride and you'll get there eventually.

Leather gloves is your bread and butter, you could use both leather and metal gloves for Combo purpose (2 hit leather 1 hit metal for Combo proc), but leather w/ serrated and pneumatic mod should be good enough. You could rely on your psychokinesis to deal with robots and other high DT enemies until you grab Expose Weakness.

Cheap Shot isn't reliable enough, but free stun from psychokinesis and cryokinesis slow is worth enough for opportunist.

As for build simulation, your Temporal Manipulation is too much, you just need 60 max for Static, or stop at 45 for haste. I'd recommend focusing on tailor first, since you don't really need electronics that much early game. It seems like the skill distribution would be very strict, I suggest to bump the level to 30, Google "underrail in-depth faq steam guide" for crafting skill requirement on Q160 (don't forget to check Crafting Table bonus and +2 INT stats from Hypercerebrix if you invest on at least 70 effective biology) and see how many spare points you have. You could put the rest on either throwing or 40+ dodge (although 40 + deflection + uncanny dodge should be enough). As for persuasion, 110 is the hard cap on DC area

[kakalbo123]

Considering what you've mentioned, would it be better to adjust stats to dex 10, agi wil and int at 7 and the rest dumped? A point in int goes a long way for crafting skills. (Initially, it was 8 agi 7 wil and 6 int.) Unless I am missing an 8 agi requirement feat.

So far I like your suggestions and recommendations. Although, I still find it troublesome on balancing crafting skills + persuasion. Considering leather gloves being the bread and butter as you suggested, going for electronics + tailoring is still the way to go, correct? I just have to prioritize tailoring over electronics for armor and leather then?

Regarding compromising/min-max on dodge and evasion, is it left on the player to feel out how much they'll need for their encounters or should there be a minimum point investment for them, dodge in particular? I get the feeling that evasion is more important than dodge since I can retreat via fancy footwork or back myself up and set a wall even if the enemy sprints towards me.

This would be the first time I'll be trying out TM so I was under the impression 70 is the minimum without actually thinking why. Lmao.

[cypherusuh]

8 agi is for Uncanny Dodge, it's pretty great since you could just leave your dodge on 40 and still get massive effective w/ Evasion synergy + deflection, else you have to rely on dodge chance, which means huge evasion investment.

Yep, leather should be prioritized. Mechanics and Electronics is mainly used for the "secondary" mods, such as Pneumatic Hammer, so lagging behind a bit is fine.

Evasion is usually better since it's also reduced AoE damage. With high enough evasion you could literally walk into mines with blast cloth tabi + leather armor and won't get scratched. There's no "soft cap", since it's depend on the enemies. Also, Siphoner could boost your dodge and evasion a lot more than other leather

[Shredded Cheddar]

Force User worth far more than Blitz. Imo, that feat is extremely situational on certain build, since you could get Psycho-Temporal Acceleration, which gives better buff and you only need 45 base Temporal Manipulation (can be increased further with feat, 15AP - > 20 AP bonus for 3 turn)

You need 55 TM skill level to learn PtC.

[cypherusuh]

Yeah and 70 TM for static. Mb

[Apostrophe]

I don't have much experience with melee or hard difficulty, but I did play a lot of SMG on dominating.

Don't skip stealth. Even with the high initiative, you will not go first always, also even when you do what good will it be when a sniper sees you whole screen away. It is an invaluable positioning tool for close-range fighters.  You are paper-thin and while your damage will be good it won't reach SMG levels, fights will last longer. You don't want to take shots at the start, your energy shield cant pull that much weight. There are many fights in the game where you are up against multiple PSI users and if you don't take them out quickly they will put up their defensive spells and are more than capable of one-shotting you.

Also with stealth, you could drop agility to 6, or even to 3 but can't really recommend it because I have no experience with damage output with this build on hard difficulty. With Tabis and Phantom Dancer (+ Temporal, Sprint) you have enough movement points. Don't forget that instead of running for cover you can wall yourself off with Forcefield or cast Stasis on yourself. Force User is actually bad for this, 2 turns duration on Forcefield is just enough for enemies to nicely group together and for you to still have your buffs. You can stealth with agility 3 even on dominating.

Dodge is nice for feats, Uncanny dodge is great as well as Escape artist. As for Evasion, I think it is just bad. You have your energy shield to protect you against small caliber and automatic weapons when necessary, so it just comes down to a hail marry roll of the dice if that sniper is going to miss you, and you should not be putting yourself in that situation, or count on that in your strategy. Protection from explosives is nice but you could just put some of that points into Traps skill to detect them.

[kakalbo123]

Going no stealth + classic would force me to engage every encounter I see, the only reprieve to encounters would be people I can do persuasion on. What made my smg/stealth playthrough easier was probably how I managed to sneak my way past encounters (that double statue guardian in one of those expedition sites for instance).

I suppose it also made the game longer considering I didn't take the feat that lets you move a little quicker in stealth, overall I probably just want to experience the thrill of being on your toes during combat like depot a did for me. I'm sorta looking for variety this time.

[cypherusuh]

Didn't read that part where you wanna do no stealth run. Imo, it's an unnecessary burden. If you want to kill all enemies, just kill em. Stealth until you're on melee range, get alpha strike, proccing fancy footwork, get enough MS to get more than 1 kill
That first hit will helps you tremendously, especially if you're using light armor. You'll most likely die from unlucky sniper hit / psi barrage

[Apostrophe]

Going no stealth + classic would force me to engage every encounter I see, the only reprieve to encounters would be people I can do persuasion on. What made my smg/stealth playthrough easier was probably how I managed to sneak my way past encounters (that double statue guardian in one of those expedition sites for instance).

I suppose it also made the game longer considering I didn't take the feat that lets you move a little quicker in stealth, overall I probably just want to experience the thrill of being on your toes during combat like depot a did for me. I'm sorta looking for variety this time.

I am not even sure you can finish the game with that build on hard, but I can guarantee you it cant finish dominating. Even on normal you would have issues, just think of some harder fights you did with SMG and how much harder they would be if you could not position yourself properly, and there are more enemies on hard and their AI is better.

So those 2 statue guardians are now 3 statue guardians that can one-shot you half a screen away, and you probably can't kill more than one per round.

[kakalbo123]

Can I get an opinion? I made an alternative build focused on con for defense instead of dodge+evasion. Although the loss of fancy footwork, I'm considering putting 40 on dodge just to get fancy footwork for the god mobility. Although the build is aiming for 4ap, FF won't be a good investment early on since that is the point of having con to begin with, to weather damage. However once I reach 16 dex, 12ap will be turned to 4ap (counting tabi and lightning punches)

I changed up the build a little bit. instead of dodge + evasion, I went for 8 con at the cost of 7->4 wila and 7-> 5 int. (I'm torn between dumping wil to 3 and making con to 9, I could use some opinion here). I'm locking myself up from premeditation and force user but it allows me to invest in more skills with the lack of dodge and evasion. In the early levels it allows me to keep a "catching-up" investment on both mechanics and electronics while keeping persuasion and tailoring maxed up every level. (I'm still adamant with the extra lore options I missed in my first playthrough hence the persuasion investment, hopefully having such a skill on hard would not be a problem)

With the loss of the psi feats, I'm getting fast metabolism at 6 and taste for blood at level 14 (if taste for blood is slighty better for combo, then at level 12)

Regarding equipment, 20% armor penalty to keep lightning punches, although I am considering investing specialty points to 5% in order to increase armor to 25%.

I read that armor penalty does not reduce temporary MP bonuses, I'm assuming fancy footwork benefits from this?

Are the following damage feats alright? Not that I have a lot of options.Ttaste for blood + recklessness + opportunist + critical power + cheap shots + psychostatic electricity.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMPBwgDBQUAHQDCoCgAAG8-AADCiMKRPSnCkQDCoABGeAAATwgrJyBQwocSBzzCiCYGSzHCsxNn4qGQBd-_