Author Topic: Calling all psionics  (Read 9080 times)

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2020, 12:10:13 pm »
That type of Forcefield nerf would be truly hilarious, a total switch in how it works after 7 years, just for the hell of it. It really should be put to a vote or something, because I'm pretty sure the majority of players would consider it a random and stupid change, and would prefer effort put in to provide psi balance that doesn't destroy the old metagame, instead of some kind of hilarious troll in the guise of a patch.
Player-only completely uninterruptible one-sided immunity for 4 turns is hilariously broken by any standard. Even more so given that with minor planning you can use it to both disengage from combat or to simply keep attacking for 4 turn from behind it. The fact that is has been "part of the metagame" does not make it any less unbalanced.
Also, as of late I've been playing of dominating ironman without using force field at all. The game is perfectly winnable. So simply nerfing force field (instead of outright removing it) is not going to break anything.

Styg

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2020, 04:57:54 pm »
That type of Forcefield nerf would be truly hilarious, a total switch in how it works after 7 years, just for the hell of it. It really should be put to a vote or something, because I'm pretty sure the majority of players would consider it a random and stupid change, and would prefer effort put in to provide psi balance that doesn't destroy the old metagame, instead of some kind of hilarious troll in the guise of a patch.

Underrail has always been an evolving game and as such, it's metagame evolves as well. Just because we left something as it is for years doesn't mean we're happy with it.

While not everybody like every change we make, I do believe that overall the game continues to improve.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2020, 06:24:27 pm »
However, as soon as some enemies are out of LoC AOE, those unaffected still chase the player (even if line if sight was broken), thus preventing player from disengaging. And often also making their enraged buddies chase them instead of killing each other ("instead of" because they use their AP chasing, not attacking).
I know it probably sounds like I'm just arguing with everything you say, but I really do agree with most of where you're coming from.  But I feel like I should add, that sort of situation is exactly the "tiny bit extra" that I was talking about when I said LoC is just as bad without FF as with.  If you've got a group that doesn't all fit in the flashbang/LoC AoE, then maybe you put psi slow on one so they end up running in to the middle of the group, and maybe you fear another so you don't have to worry about them for four turns.  Next turn, when the slowed dude is in the middle of the incapped group, you can stun 'em with a mental breakdown or a tk punch.  Then next turn, they get the LoC Enrage along with all their friends.  If that problem add was a robot, well, you drop an electrotrap at their feet/treads instead, right?

Planning out an ideal AoE does take a slightly grander scope than a single turn, but I've always found it relatively easy to do.  With good setup, almost every fight in the game should be manageable in a single turn once you've placed the pieces on the field where you want them - a group enrage; a ThermoD bomb; a Psionic Mania Cryo Orb followed by a Pyrokinesis to take care of anyone left.  Sticky, tough groups like Balor just require whatever you'd normally do plus an Entropic Recurrence on the boss.  One turn and it's all over but the dying.

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2020, 07:15:33 pm »
Planning out an ideal AoE does take a slightly grander scope than a single turn, but I've always found it relatively easy to do.  With good setup, almost every fight in the game should be manageable in a single turn once you've placed the pieces on the field where you want them - a group enrage; a ThermoD bomb; a Psionic Mania Cryo Orb followed by a Pyrokinesis to take care of anyone left.  Sticky, tough groups like Balor just require whatever you'd normally do plus an Entropic Recurrence on the boss.  One turn and it's all over but the dying.
To be fair, literally one TNT charge from stealth will create enough sound to draw everyone on the map to one location, where you will be able to get all of them under one LoC pretty consistently.
My argument is more that LoC requires at least some setup, while force field can be used AFTER you've already done something stupid as a "get out of jail free" card.
And, again, I agree that some penalty/extra cost for multiply targets being effected by LoC (that scales with number of targets) is warranted.




chimaera

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2020, 09:36:59 pm »
Tnt baiting works, force field baiting works, stasis baiting works. Both LoC and thermodestabilization are very easy to set up against entire groups because of this. Even if you nerf force field and destabilization, you can achieve the same (except againts robots) with stasis and mass neural overload.

edit: And this works for both full psi and hybrid psi. You can use the same trick with a grenadier, using mkv frag grenades or mkiii plasma, for example.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 09:56:28 pm by chimaera »

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2020, 12:06:09 am »
Tnt baiting works, force field baiting works, stasis baiting works. Both LoC and thermodestabilization are very easy to set up against entire groups because of this. Even if you nerf force field and destabilization, you can achieve the same (except againts robots) with stasis and mass neural overload.

edit: And this works for both full psi and hybrid psi. You can use the same trick with a grenadier, using mkv frag grenades or mkiii plasma, for example.
Balancing things one by one, starting with the most overpowered abilities, seems reasonable.

Force field is the worst, as it's available at lvl 2-3, maxes out with lvl 4 feat and has the longest duration and the most utility overall.

Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.



chimaera

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2020, 12:18:39 am »
Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.
Getting surrounded only makes one-shotting a group with LoC mass overload easier.

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2020, 01:10:17 pm »
Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.
Getting surrounded only makes one-shotting a group with LoC mass overload easier.
That sounds like psychosis build. I really don't have enough experience with those on dominating to tell how viable they are for the game at large.

harperfan7

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2020, 01:53:22 pm »
Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.

*eurobeat intensifies*

chimaera

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2020, 06:41:13 pm »
That sounds like psychosis build. I really don't have enough experience with those on dominating to tell how viable they are for the game at large.
Why wouldn't they be viable? Early on you can buff neural overload criticals with trance, but later it grows in power enough that it's not necessary, even on dominating. Or especially on dominating, because resistances, evasion, shields etc. all don't matter. And for the things that are immune you still have psychokinesis and metathermics. (and the nice thing about LoC is that you can target hidden enemies if you know where they are, even if you haven't detected them)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 06:47:43 pm by chimaera »

brobotics

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2020, 09:52:36 pm »
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hrri60ksir9ihzm/AABRtHKEYsNdZdgObzJsKhX5a?dl=0

Here's my lvl 28 tranq character,  all schools except TM

Please go easy with the nerfs  :'(

Tayon

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2020, 12:27:32 pm »
Stealthy Tranquil Psi-Generalist lvl 30.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hJU_tDmCElSwylTldZ2kAOsurfr4wlV9


For a start, nerf Force Field. It is normal when it is impenetrable in the performance of me, a psion of the 30th lvl from the 18th will. But a 3rd lvl rookie able to restrain the guardian naga with it... Its bulshit.
Also, please do something useful from monstrous psionic synergy. A veteran fit would be nice, one allowing the Will stat to influence the synergy cap.
Or just throw it out. Psionic synergy, I mean. Why is it there, teasing players, promising OP... But in fact - completely useless.

P.S. Sorry, I gave the wrong link before
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 02:27:27 pm by Tayon »

Tamior

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2020, 06:40:32 pm »
That sounds like psychosis build. I really don't have enough experience with those on dominating to tell how viable they are for the game at large.
Why wouldn't they be viable? Early on you can buff neural overload criticals with trance, but later it grows in power enough that it's not necessary, even on dominating. Or especially on dominating, because resistances, evasion, shields etc. all don't matter. And for the things that are immune you still have psychokinesis and metathermics. (and the nice thing about LoC is that you can target hidden enemies if you know where they are, even if you haven't detected them)
There is a long portion of a game between picking psychosis (lvl 2) and getting LoC/psionic mania/etc. In that portion of the game you have increased psi cost, while your damage output is essentially random.
I have no doubts you can survive that (maybe with a few reloads), but I have some doubts as to how much harder it would be compared to tranq build.

chimaera

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Re: Calling all psionics
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2020, 07:14:48 pm »
There is a long portion of a game between picking psychosis (lvl 2) and getting LoC/psionic mania/etc. In that portion of the game you have increased psi cost, while your damage output is essentially random.
I have no doubts you can survive that (maybe with a few reloads), but I have some doubts as to how much harder it would be compared to tranq build.
I don't pick psychosis on level 2, though (I also don't play with survival instincts). And I've never said psychosis is easier than a tranq build. It is easy to play, even on dominating, though.