Questions about a Chemical Pistols Build

[Philo]

Hi there,

It's my first time posting here and I am pleased to meet you all. Quick introduction : being a fan of oldschool RPG such as Fallout 1 and 2 and Arcanum, I played like 600 hours on this game... And the more i play it, the more thoughts (and time) i put into my builds. After having played an SMG build (normal), a full PSI build (normal, before it was nerfed), a shotgun build (hard) and an AR tincan build (hard), i am now planning to play a chemical pistol build (in hard or dominating, but more likely hard)... And i got a quite a few questions about it.

The general idea is to use Chemical Pistols and Stealth. Stats distribution involve something like 3/16/7/3/8/3/7. The feats I currently am sure about are Sprint, Pack Rathound, Cooked Shot, Opportunist, Escape Artist (i really hate to be entangled when playing a glass canon build) and Blindsiding. I am not so sure about what to pick next between : Ambush (it seems pretty good to me), Grenadier (i picked it on my SMG build and have an hard time not picking it because it's (too) strong in the early game), Aimed Shot, Mad Chemist, Uncanny Dodge, Quick Tinkering, Point Shot, Interloper, Sure Step, Blitz (hefty investement in Agility though), Hit and Run, Trigger Happy and finaly, Paranoia. Sharpshooter and Critical Power seem interesting as well but it requires an heavy investement in Perception. About my equipement, I plan to use at least CAU Armor, Acid and Fire pistols, Stealth Tabi Boots. My questions are the following :

- What is the optimal points distribution in Dexterity, and in Perception (8 seems good since Acid Blob Pistol helps versus high Evasion) ?
- What's your opinion on the general feats distribution for a Stealth Chemical Pistol build ?
- What do you think about Ambush ? Is it only good for Crossbow or Sniper Rifles ?
- Are Sharpshooter and Critical Power worth it for a Chemical Pistol build ? I saw Hilf talking about it in his thread about an energy/chem pistol build. Maybe it's better suited for Energy Pistols ?
- Isn't Grenadier redondant with Cooked Shot giving an AOE effect for Chemical Pistols ?
- Is mad chemist necessary in the case i am using XAL-001 Pistol ? In this scenario, i use Incendiary Blob Pistol only to help me ambush enemies.
- Is Quick Tinkering still good despite the nerf, and me using Stealth, Chemical Pistols and Grenades (which give me a lot of options vs stealthed opponents) ?
- What is your opinion on Sure Step ? Is it good throughout the game ? And what about Hit and Run ?
- What are the crafting skills to favor ? How much Mechanics is necessary for a Chemical Pistol build ? Is it important to max Chemistry ?
- Is going for 0 in Tailoring a good choice considering i will mostly use CAU armor ?
- If i go for Ambush, is 80 points in Stealth enough ?

I know that's a lot of questions and i am already grateful if you mind answering just a few. Base build is Stealth/Chemical Pistols but I am open to any ideas. My current build would look like something like this (unfinished obviously) : https://underrail.info/build/?GAMPBwMIAwfCgjIAAB4AUFA0CjJabG4kAAAAAAAAAFQnOQEWAsKRViZOwoUkHWHioowD4qicAuKyuwTfvw (lvl 24). I hope my post is clear enough.

Kind regards,

Philo.

[HulkOSaurus]

With 8 Perception determining the damage output and accuracy of your chemical pistols you're better off making a character fully invested in Dexterity + Melee and using the Versatility feat. There's also specialization points in.

That will also allow you to redistribute some points and go into what you think will be best. It will open up strong melee combat without really diminishing the Chemical Pistol strength while further reducing their AP to fire. You will also have the ability to use SMGs, perhaps even take the Spec Ops perk in addition to all the Chem Pistol shenanigans. More Agility and Constitution sound like a good deal to me. You could even take some small Psi to help support.

[Philo]

Thank you for your answer HulkOSaurus (i am a fan of Baldur's gate as well). I have read something about a build involving Versatility with Chemical pistol / Crossbow by Quidam Craft and it seemed pretty strong. Versatility got a lot of potential indeed and i see a lot of merit with a Melee/Chemical Pistol build, which may be able to face a lot of situations. I'll think about it. About Agility and Constitution, do you think about something like 10 for Blitz (which i know is awesome with Melee) and 6 for Fast Metabolism (for Regen Vest) ? Sure Step sounds like a good addition for what you suggest.

This hybrid would be a nice way to try a melee build (which i have not played yet) !

[HulkOSaurus]

To make a build around Xbow/Chem Pistols you'd need a decent investment into Perception. The synergy there is the auto-crit with xbows on Acidic Entanglement, but if I am not mistaken, the perk needed Perception. Not sure about that. But in either case, you can play it.

What I can tell you about a high Dexterity melee build with Versatility is that you won't be short on options to choose from. There's just so many good perks and a lot of the combinations work well.

Personally, I think Sure Step would be pretty good for you since this is a Chem Pistol build. If all the poisoned caltrops weren't enough you could even do something like Infused Rathound Leather Tabis and have a stunning kick available on a shorter cooldown. Blitz would be quite sick, as well. 

[Philo]

Quidam Craft covered the subject of Crossbow/Chemical Pistols very well there : https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=4227.0.

Yes, i see your points. You got a lot of nice ideas. "Jack of all trades" characters seem both viable and fun (on Hard at least), when you know what you're doing. Blitz seems awesome but my main problem with it is that it requires 10 Agility. If i want to have 8 in Perception, 6 in Intelligence, i feel forced to dump Constitution (which i am not sure about with a melee build) and to put less points in Dexterity (15 at level 30 if i dump Constitution). But i am guessing that Blitz might compensate having lesser Dexterity, while giving more options. You mentionned Dirty Kick. Is it that good ?

You're very knowledgeable about the game. What do you think about Ambush ?

[HulkOSaurus]

Let's get back to the beginning.

If you're planning on running Chemical Pistols with only 8 Perception, you're better off maxing Dexterity/Melee instead and using the Versatility feat(Guns = 60%-70% Melee). That will give you the same result Chem Pistol-wise, while at the same time freeing more base points for you to put wherever you like them.

I can't really tell you where to put those because there are many good options.

Yes, Dirty Kick is an incredibly useful tool. If you happen to pick Sure Step you won't have to worry about footwear so you could do Infused Rathound Leather Tabis to further diversify your arsenal. But that's neither here, nor there. It's just one viable option out of many.

[Philo]

I understand better now. Trying to mixing ideas from different builds got me sidetracked it seems.

The melee/chemical pistol build you're talking about got better synergies than a pure guns build with only 8 Perception. I might lower Perception a bit thanks to Versatility, and get some points for Agility/Constitution.

This hybrid build definitly offers a lot of options indeed. I'll need some time to think about it. Thanks again.

[Bruno]

Just a few pointers, as I just played a stealth/chemguns character.

-If you either have perception=8 or Versatility, you will have mediocre hit chance. You can have 95% cth against slow bricks or enemies up close, but against enemies at range, or e.g. Dogs, prepare for 60% hit chance. Cooked Shot can help as it is AOE, so does not care about target evasion.

-Max range of a chemgun is 7. You will need to get rather close to enemies. Prepare accordingly

-With melee Versatility, you will have to max melee to get any use of your chemgun, and have very high dex. At this point, when you need to be pretty close to enemies as well to hit them, you dont really need the chemgun, melee is better. So for me that kind of deafeat the point of the build. I would personally not do this, but that is personal preference. It is just a different build.

-Freezing enemies with a cryogun removes vision, so you can restealth and end combat. Occationally useful.

-Cooked Shot is awesome, take it at first opportunity.
EDIT: Cooked Shot at close range, like grenades, can have unforseen side effects. In my run, I managed to freeze myself, entangle myself in acid, and set myself on fire. Multiple times. Prepare accordingly.

-I used Quick Tinkering a lot. It works great with stealth. You craft heavy explosives with high chemistry, and blow enemies up, and set bear traps so you trap and actually hit evasive enemies, instead of missing 4/4 shots. Lifesaver #1 in the Arena.

[Philo]

Thank you for the tips, Bruno. Quick Tinkering seems good despite the nerf. What was your perception on your stealth/chemguns character ? Did you use Ambush ? Is it viable with the low range of chemical pistols ?

[Bruno]

Thank you for the tips, Bruno. Quick Tinkering seems good despite the nerf. What was your perception on your stealth/chemguns character ? Did you use Ambush ? Is it viable with the low range of chemical pistols ?

No problem.
I had 8 perception, but played a personal variant with 10 constitution (I like hard characters). Had to sacrifice dexterity (7) unfortunately.

Ambush, I considered it a lot, because of my mediocre accuracy. Ambush halves enemy evasion, so it would be a great help.
Ultimately, I played until lv 16, but did not take it yet.

Reason is that I had only 2-3 shots a round (never found an advanced catalyzing belt!).
Cooked shot of course, and an Aimed shot, maybe a Quick Tinkering, a lvl IV grenade, it spent all my APs.
I could not see a way that Ambush would make my build much better. The usefulness of a chemgun is much about entagling in acid, freezing or setting on fire, and while criticals are awesome, crowd control and damage over time, it worked well enough.

Perhaps if I did not enjoy Cooked Shot so much, I would use Ambush instead, but I dont know, it is situational as well.

Oh, another thing: you get a conflict in what goggles you want to use.
Cooked Shot begs for Smart Goggles with special attack bonus. Same thing for Aimed Shot, Execute, Point Shot. Smart Goggles does nothing for your Ambush. This also made me hesitate to take the feat.

[Philo]

Thank again for your detailed answer. I was thinking about something like firing with an Incendiary pistol to proc Ambush and then finish off enemies with Acid pistol... But maybe Ambush is better suited for a critical build, like a Crossbow build for example. With Chemical Pistols, You indeed deal damages overtime while having a lot of CC... And since you can entangle opponents using an Acid Pistol or traps, you can deal with high evasion opponents (with a bit of luck). About stats distribution, i think that something like 10 or 11 Perception might be a good enough score, along with 14 Dexterity.

I've found your old topic called "Chemical Pistol feats questions" and it's pretty interesting as well. Point Shot seems to be a good choice to reduce the action points cost of chemical pistols. I am not too sure about Aimed Shot though, despite it being very useful early on.

[Slugcat]

Are Sharpshooter and Critical Power worth it for a Chemical Pistol build ? I saw Hilf talking about it in his thread about an energy/chem pistol build. Maybe it's better suited for Energy Pistols ?

Worth it, but only crucial for regular (ballistic) weaponry. I'd take Critical Power, but this is a personal preference.

Is going for 0 in Tailoring a good choice considering i will mostly use CAU armor ?

Sure. CAU armor is very decent, especially for your build. Bonus to your Cooked Shot is the main reason to use this outfit exclusively, so Tailoring is not necessary.

[Philo]

Thank you Slugcat. Are you saying you'd take Critical Power for a chemical pistols build ? Maybe i am misunderstanding this feat (i didn't play any crit build yet) but how would it work without taking Sharpshooter and Chemical Pistols having no bonus to their critical damages ?

[Slugcat]

but how would it work without taking Sharpshooter and Chemical Pistols having no bonus to their critical damages ?

You understand correctly.

Sharpshooter isn't gonna make that much of a difference, though. In my experience, this feat is very good for snipers (MORE DOMINATION!) and traditional gunslingers (because they have to use every feat to make bullet-throwing pistols somewhat viable)

What I'm suggesting is: don't get married to a single weapon. Well-crafted Amplified Plasma Pistol has a tremendous crit potential (allowing you to use Critical Power properly) and can be used as a good opener in many "spirited negotiations". 

You can go "pure chem" with Critical Power and Sharpshooter, but I'm not sure how effective this will be. Cooked Shot seems to be the main advantage over traditional firearms, but it deals normal (non-critical, yeah?) damage.

[Bruno]

If you want to use primarily chemical weapons, Sharpshooter+Critical Power is not useful in my opinion.

You need to move around a lot, so Sharpshooter is of limited value. Much utility from the acid gun lies in entangling, moving and hiding out of sight, and returning to fire next round. No Sharpshooter bonus then. Same thing if you want to use Ambush, then you often need to move a bit to a dark tile.

Critical Power just seems like a waste with no other bonuses to critical damage.

But as was said before, if you want to branch out into like energy weapons, then maybe it is worth it. It is a different kind of build.