Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

[Eliasfrost]

Some people seem to forget that you also got a room, and I don't know about you guys but I ALWAYS use my room as storage in any RPG. So if you wanna sell something later, store some extra supplies that you can't carry or have some neat amours or guns that are too heavy: USE YOUR ROOM.

And yes, I am the type of guy that locks his room with the keycard after I leave.

Omg, I've never thought about using the room. I've rerolled dozens of characters but I've never thought about using it.

[Ysobel]

Aaaaaaaah !

Seriously, better limit the number of slots like said before. It's just horrible to do the maths of "if I take this I can't take that but blablabla". Thinking for hours about how to organize it without moving isn't part of the fun, it's like an annoying job and I must already think about too much stuff when I work, don't want a game that I like to become like this !

Really in Fallout I hated that system. Especially because many items where a great use and I was in the obligation of not having them and when I could have needed them they weren't in my inventory.

For the merchants ok, the need to choose wisely when you go into mission ok.

But the weight, if you're not a strong character you can't sometimes even take with you a big armor you could sell. You can't take anything with you. The weight always depends of strengh and when you play a character with no strengh it's juste impossible to loot and search for things. When you do a sneaky weak character it's also to steal, to open lockers... And that kind of characters can't have anything in their bags !

So please choose just limited slots in the inventory and excuse my english.

[UnLimiTeD]

I think it's better than every container containing stuff.
It always bugs me that every damn chest in near everygame seems to be purposefully placed for me to grab it's contents.
Well, it is, but it's too obvious. It's nice to have some empties, though maybe not only.
As for slots, weight, I'm fine with either.
I'd go for an abstract one, with the item taking between 1 and 5 slots, and strength only having a very small effect so you can say it does
Ironically, the characters that can carry the most often don't need to.
If a Char has 10 strength, he's probably melee, so less running costs for ammo.

[LazyMonk]

Some empty containers are fine and dandy, but those empty locked lockers and chests are an awful surprise.
Who bothers to lock an empty chest?

[Barrelsoup Chef]

And yes, I am the type of guy that locks his room with the keycard after I leave.

Hahaha, i do that to. Do you also turn down the lights?

Only the one in the bedroom, the hallway always stays on in my place.

Some empty containers are fine and dandy, but those empty locked lockers and chests are an awful surprise.
Who bothers to lock an empty chest?

That was exactly what I was thinking haha

[Elhazzared]

This new mechanic seams to just add a lot of bad stuff. One of the major good things I've always found about underrail was that it left behind bad concepts such as carry weights (or carry limits) and having to find the right merchant to sell the item... Quite frankly I'm the kind of person who cannot leave a stone unturned and who would not under any circunstances leave anything behind. To do so would drive me crazy. Then we add the fact that merchants will only buy so much which means that I'd spend hours running around trying to sell all of my loot which just end up making me stop playing cause I was not getting fun out of the game. For me what is important in the game, what makes it fun is going around killing enenemies. Looting, getting my character stronger and enjoying the story of it as well as all the side quests I can get. Anything that is turning me away from this path is making me enjoy the game less... I also think it's fair to say that most of the old-school RPG players think in a similar fashion.

Please do not limit our carry abillities (especially limiting for low strenght characters) and please do not limit our abillity to sell the items. If your problem is that some players will get less because they don't want to be forced to kill everyone and as a result they will get less loot. Then quite frankly there are other options. Just as there is an option not to take lockpicking. You get less loot but there are ways to make money making up for the loss such as crafting and pick pocketing. Same could be assumed here, if you get less loot from less killing, you can just steal people to make up for it or craft items and sell them to make up for it. All of these contrivances are just detrimental to everyone who enjoys the killing and looting proccess.

[Omegakill]

While I understand the changes have been made for balance reasons some players don't find that much fun in balance, they like to have a stupid amount of money to call upon for whatever reason, I remember in Arcanum I use to go to the first town and pick pocket the blacksmith for his key to his wares and steal them and his money, I did this again and again until I was happy, I want this sort of thing available to players, if people don't want to do it because it would over power them then it is up to that person to not do it, but I would like the choice of being able to do so, it would also help players that find the game too hard, I know you've added an easy difficulty and i've yet to fully test this build out for longer than 30 minutes but I think the minor addition of being able to steal from clerks would be something worth doing so theif type characters can really prosper.

People are welcome to disagree with my views but at the end of the day if the option is there and you don't agree with it, don't do it, that is the beauty of choice. I find the same arguments about games that allow cheats and some people were screaming about not allowing cheats and I just think...why? Are you that mentally weak that you can't resist yourself and you want to take that option away from the people that do want it?

[UnLimiTeD]

That's a rather onesided view, though.
What about people that like to tinker with character builds, like, say, me, who are then forced to take suboptimal choices just to not make the game boring.
Recent examples include Dishonoured, Path of Exile, or for Boardgames Battletech.
Min-Maxing is fun, and it it turns out too easy, ends up OP, or the choices that have to be made are blatantly boring, it ruins the experience.
You may say it's like not using cheats, but I'm personally fed up with having to purposefully gimp myself just to enjoy a game. Isn't there also a component of beating a challenge?

[Elhazzared]

I've never found underrail to ever be easy even taking optimal routes. That might be because I am the kind of person who just likes going for combat and looting but still, in every fight I had to approuch it in an optimal way with an optimal built character and quite frankly the hardest parts usually required a few loads because some enemies just kill you so fast that even optimal builds alone aren't the only thing to take into account.

But that isn't exactly what should be being debated here but rather whether or not we belive the changes to the economy and weight system are good or not.

I already expressed being against it because it restricts the game so much to the point that it isn't fun to play anymore. But that is only my opinion.

[Omegakill]

That's a rather onesided view, though.
What about people that like to tinker with character builds, like, say, me, who are then forced to take suboptimal choices just to not make the game boring.
Recent examples include Dishonoured, Path of Exile, or for Boardgames Battletech.
Min-Maxing is fun, and it it turns out too easy, ends up OP, or the choices that have to be made are blatantly boring, it ruins the experience.

It may be a one sided view, but this is exactly what I'm referring to when I mentioned other players complaining about it, it won't affect you if you have the choice to steal from a shop owner, you just don't do it and carry on as normal so it doesn't affect the way you play in any way shape or form, whereas I am able to steal from the shop keeper and we're both happy rather than me not having a choice at all.

Also what has it got to do with people that like to tinker with builds? I think I'm missing your point because as far as I can see it's got nothing to do with it, you want a melee character with high strength ok go ahead, you want a sniper with high dex go ahead, what does being able to steal from a store have to do with this?

You may say it's like not using cheats, but I'm personally fed up with having to purposefully gimp myself just to enjoy a game. Isn't there also a component of beating a challenge?

Why should you have to gimp yourself into enjoying the game? The economy of the game doesn't have to change, other than being able to steal items or money from shopkeepers, what actually changes about the game mechanics? Nothing.

It's all about the power of choice, if you don't want to have that option then be mentally strong enough to keep reloading that save on that particular hard combat and try different tactics, rather than resorting to stealing a resource that should be available to steal anyway.

[Styg]

What Unlimited is trying to say (and what I agree with wholeheartedly) is that it's not players responsibility to balance how challenging the game is.

If a certain game mechanic is available in the game which grants the player a certain advantage if used correctly, it should be used by the player without them fearing it will unbalance the game to the point where it won't be challenging anymore. The players fun should come from figuring out how to best utilize and combine different mechanics to overcome a challenge. The player should not have to worry about which mechanics he should avoid in order for the game to still be challenging.

That said, what I might consider doing is allowing players to lift various restrains for a particular play-through. I'm not convinced there's value in this though.

[Omegakill]

I get the point, however if that mechanic is available then I would imagine the player intelligent enough to know that abusing it would make the game unfair. If the player knows that doing action x is going to net easy money/experience then it's down to that person to not go down that route if they're going to feel cheap by it or feel like it's going to ruin the fun. In a way it's similar to waiting for enemies to re-spawn in different area's and just fighting them again for exp and equipment but that's just my viewpoint...

If the player should figure out how to best utilise and combine different mechanics to overcome a challenge then imo this type of thieving mechanic should be one of them available as a choice, maybe as a cheat command as I do agree that it could take away the challenge from the game but some people just like having a stupid level of money or items available to them, I have a thing where I like to overpower my character in most RPG's and see how long I can survive and take out ever possible NPC there is, I'm pretty sure you haven't designed the game to take that into consideration but it's something I will end up doing at some point.

Anyway I was just trying to make a point of player choice, if you don't intend to put that type of mechanic in the game that's down to you, if/when you do choose to explore that option and people say no it's useless and I'm the only one on this wagon feel free to pull it from the game, you won't find any complaints from me, I want this game to be just as amazing as you do.

[Sakuragi]

Hmm the new economy changes is alright for me. I love that merchants do not buy all your stuff but are looking for some specific items. Item weight system is fun too and goes well with the new merchant system. My new character has the lowest weight capacity with only 3 strength and it feels enough. I just stored all the stuff i do not use in my private room locker before further adventures.

As for money, i am not super rich but i am not poor either. I just started/am at the Armadillo quest.

[UnLimiTeD]

If "Traders buy 2x as much, No character carry limit" was available in the menu as a cheat, or more neutral a "Mod" like in the first Unreal Tournament, then I'd be fine with that.
Also, thanks Styg for putting it that well.
I'm a Game Designer myself, but in my free time kinda intend to not watch over that.^^
I really like feeling good about making the right choices, instead of regretting them because they turn out "too good".

[Sakuragi]

Ok just finish all the main quest which are available (i.e got the city core quest but incomplete).


I felt like i have wasted so much on crafting skills and i never did craft an end game item for me. Only items i crafted was psi boosters, kits and TNT and one acid resistance leather armor against the mutant (makes life easier for the armadillo quest).  Right now it is so much easier to buy items off merchants or loot.

Why i felt that crafting skills is sub par:
1) I bought a  psionic headband for cheap 8 to all psi and 5% crit chance from Ezra. I then tried to craft an upgrade but i needed 94 electronics which is a huge investment ( i even put 1 skill point into int and later regretted it because crafting is lame). The headband i would have crafted would get 8 to all psi, 5% crit chance and 34% crit damage. I had 93 electronics at level 14 and i still need another level to craft it but well dunno what oddity i can still learn from.

2) Another example, i wanted to craft myself a regenerative vest but i needed about 80 tailor so i was working my way up to there. On my way to finish some quest i looted one which had better fire defense and life regeneration/turn (but wit higher energy consumption), less armor penalty (so more movement speed) but with less mechanical damage reduction. Here again i told myself dang wasted point in that.

I hope that we could get feats that improve our crafted items (only one i think is the power management feat) but then again what feat would i substitute for the crafting feat!

As for the oddity system. I love it. It is awesome except for i do not know what oddity i can still learn from ( Gotta need a list). Though for 1st quest- hopper quest, leveling is really really slow. Weight management is good too and is manageable even on a char with 3 strength. I like the new merchant system too. Took a while before i knew who wants what. New areas, mobs and quests are awesome, i was like hmm did not know that the map was that big.

I will be off until another 2-3 updates before ill play new game again but ill lurk on the forum from time to time.

Thx for the great game.

Hmm i wanna know if there are more psi spells under development or that is it? More feats too?