Dev Log #27: Version 0.1.10.0 released

[Barrelsoup Chef]

Great Patch! Here is some feedback.

-Oddity System
First of all, I really like where this game is going. I really like the oddity system as much as I like it classic (+ the chose to choose between them is awesome). It is true that the oddity system doesn't let you level up quickly early game, but in my experience that ain't a problem at all and this level gap closes itself really quick when you visit the junkyard. This "treasure hunt" for Oddity's is really working out for me.

-Enemy's and Combat
Difficulty is good, people complaining about how enemy's "should be nerfed in HP". Haha sorry, but is this Call of Duty? Even those nasty faceless with there lasers and plasma ain't no match for a gamer that really want to take the enemy down. I hope the combat will be even more difficult as the game progresses.

-Map Design
Underrail still feels like Underail but some of the new areas feels a bit empty to me. I can see that still a lot of corridors and routes are dead ends. I can imagine that if the new areas are completed the "emptiness" of the already existing areas (with the dead ends) will go away so I will just wait and see how it will play out in further patches. The appearance of the new areas are stunning, especially Rails Crossing. I find the stores that are inside of railcars with graffiti on them really appealing!

-Item Condition and Repair
No more problems with my weapons or amours conditions. I think this is balanced out really well and even if it is slightly nerfed back (quicker decay) it still wouldn't be a problem for me. Lots of junk can be converted to scrap to make repairkits, no more problems spending all my money on repairkits.

-Loot, Money and Merchants
There is more loot, found in better conditions. Great! There ain't much of a difference in how much money I am making. My inventory value has gone up, but I can't sell all of it so the money stays about the same.

Merchants are ok too, but I do think they have a poor selection of items you can sell to them and in small quantity. If this was buffed a little it would give hoarders like me a better time selling there loot.

My main source of money (I thought I saw LazyMonk say the same thing) is by recycling all my loot I can't carry and convert it into repairkits. You don't get as rich from this as selling it manually (items not recycled into repairkits) but you will never have broken weapons again + the items you do wanna sell (lets say a expensive sniper) you can repair to boost up the value!

-Item Management and Weight
This is something I do have some criticism about. I love the idea of items having a weight, its more realistic this way. You can't carry all the loot of Underrail in your backpack. However at the moment I find myself really short on inventory space. I hate that I can't move at all when I have all my loot in my pocket but I can live with this. But if I only had like 50 more base weight that would be great.

They biggest problem I run into was item management. I go to my room, stash my loot, and find myself click and drag all my stuff into the lockers/shelfs for about half an hour. Also you can't stack inside a container (example stacking 5 mindshrooms from your inventory on 2 mindshrooms in your locker).

SUGGESTIONS

I understand that boosting 50 base weight is too much to ask, so here is a alternative that sounds really appealing. Make a item 'Backpack', it will be equipped on the belt spot. You gain 25 weight BUT it will cost you 10 movement points.

Here is an other one. Make item management a bit less frustrating for those hoarders. By holding down [keyboard key] and click on a item in your inventory while there is a container opened, the item will automatically transfer to the container, visa versa. Also stacking goods inside containers and a 'sort' button in your rooms containers (the lockers, shelf and desk) would be a REALLY great update!

-Bugs

Last but not least, I came to my attention that the bulletbelt (I cant remember the name, the item that reduces reloading time) and the medicinebelt (the one for low cost AP healing) are nowhere to be found in my games (not as loot and merchants don't sell those). The only belts available are the liftingbelt, vigorousbelt, trappersbelt and the utilitybelt.


Overall: great patch, love the new content. Styg, you know your stuff!

[intensity]

At some point it will be raised. Probably to level 30.

I would love to know that the current content is only 30% of the game... I have already sunk over 60h into it and it's only an alpha. It makes me sad that the game has to end somewhere, because I would prefer level 50 finish.

Seriously, I do not want the game to end. 

[Elhazzared]

yeah I know what you mean, it would be nice if the speed run of this game was 100.000 hours long, but alas such is not possible. Still when this one is fully released I'm sure there will be room for either DLC which allows many more hours of gameplay though it will of course require time or simply an underrail 2.

[Styg]

yeah I know what you mean, it would be nice if the speed run of this game was 100.000 hours long, but alas such is not possible. Still when this one is fully released I'm sure there will be room for either DLC which allows many more hours of gameplay though it will of course require time or simply an underrail 2.

Indeed. The adventure will not be over with the full release, don't worry.

[UnLimiTeD]

And here, ladies and gentlemen, you can see the difference between your average AAA product and a well managed and lovingly crafted indie game:
People anxiously crave DLCs. 

[Elhazzared]

It doesn't means a DLC has to actually be small. Just because some companies make tiny DLCs and squeeze a lot of money for it, it doesn't means that other developers have to follow suit in a bad direction. There have been games in the past ho received major DLC updates that added so much that it was awesome. I know that the DLC's for the pit were for the most part big, only one of them was small cause it mainly had 3 new classes and a few extra stuff to craft. FTL is receiving a major free DLC this year too. I am sure Styg knows what he does there. If he makes a DLC it will be certainly well worth it, if not then there will be an underrail 2 for sure.

[Styg]

It doesn't means a DLC has to actually be small. Just because some companies make tiny DLCs and squeeze a lot of money for it, it doesn't means that other developers have to follow suit in a bad direction. There have been games in the past ho received major DLC updates that added so much that it was awesome. I know that the DLC's for the pit were for the most part big, only one of them was small cause it mainly had 3 new classes and a few extra stuff to craft. FTL is receiving a major free DLC this year too. I am sure Styg knows what he does there. If he makes a DLC it will be certainly well worth it, if not then there will be an underrail 2 for sure.

QFT. Stuff like horse armor and that sort of crap tend to add bad connotations to the term "DLC", but there are also games that released DLCs that are well worth the price and expand the game quite substantially, much like the classic expansions of the old days but with a more convenient delivery system.

[Elhazzared]

Ok I've decided to give this game a very short go, I wanted to take a look at the new economy system in action. I already knew from the patch notes that I wouldn't like it, as I've expressed my opinion here before but I decided, let's just do the first quest and see into how many problems I'll run into. This is what I found.

I've cleared the first area and the one to the left where there is the generator. killed every rathound, looted everything and went back (yes I didn't even finished the quest) cause I needed healing. Now when I got back I managed to sell a couple guns, my starting one and the one I found. I sold a few bullets and some leather. then I was left with a ton of stuff I just couldn't sell because no one even bought them to begging with. I'm talking about things like hearts and scraps and other misclaneous components. This is stuff that is actually worth a lot of money but where are the buyers? Not only there is none, but judging from the quantities of stuff merchants buy I'd sell probably 3 pieces and then wait 90 minutes for them to reset to be able to sell more. This is just plain wrong and bear in mind, I have barelly played but already I am unable to sell stuff that I have no use for and that is worth quite a bit of money... I haven't managed to run into weight problems and I was sure I wasn't going to early game, that is why I thought of only atempting the first quest but if 10 minutes into the game I am already having these problems with selling stuff, I can't imagine how horrible it will become later on.

Another that I hadn't thought before but became so clearly evident after I tried to buy or sell anything. I'm am always going to have much worse trades than before. When merchants bought everything I could min max the less valuable stuff I had to make the trade as fair as possible because the merchant does not loses even one 1 credit so now you have to always pay more than the stuff is worth or sell for less than the stuff is worth.

Lastly this is not directly related to the new economy systembut I'd like to add it none the less... Sure a pure Psi build is possible from the beggining, but it's at a major disadvantage. Everyone  buys a few bullets, finds a few more and still has money to buy everything else but a psiker will have to buy Psi boosters by the ton throughout the whole game. Now later on this will not be as much of a problem but initially they will only be able to afford them and nothing else because psi boosters give enough Psi to kill 3 creatures in average (around 45 psi per kill if everything goes perfectly and the bosster only gives 170, but it's highly likelly that here and there you need a third attack to make the kill which means more psi spent ). Now Psi boosters do are cheaper, but 700 per psi booster = 700 cost to kill 3 enemies, that's far from effective and while yes, you can use other weapons and use Psi whenever necessary only, it's very innefective considering your skills will make Psi deal a lot of damage, everything else is subpar damage wise which means that not only it takes a lot longer to kill the enemies, but it also means you take more damage and are spending on healing instead.

I haven't tested the innitiative system because from the notes I found it to be unrelliable. What people need is to have a way to make sure they always act first. Stealth inherently does that even if with slight penalties to movement now it is still the best way to start of an engagement because you have the first turn and you can setup the battle accordingly to whatever you scout first... I'd sugest making the innitiative system less unrelliable, much less RNG related. It is important to know when you're going to have the first turn and when you aren't.

[captainmeow]

then I was left with a ton of stuff I just couldn't sell because no one even bought them to begging with. I'm talking about things like hearts and scraps and other misclaneous components. This is stuff that is actually worth a lot of money but where are the buyers?

I have to say this was actually my main gripe with the update. I liked the new weight system because it meant we have to stop and think about the loot we take, but only to be unable to sell half of it anyway? just makes it seem pointless, really. I don't have a problem with merchants only buying things they actually deal in, this helps with immersion, but being unable to offload all the stuff you've collected just crosses over into frustration. Personally i wouldn't mind having merchants pay full price for the first 2-3 items you sell them, then considerably slash the value of the trade for any more you sell to them, just as long as there isn't a cap on the quantity that you can sell.

I'd sugest making the innitiative system less unrelliable, much less RNG related. It is important to know when you're going to have the first turn and when you aren't.

according to the wiki initiative is calculated as agility + dexterity + random number from 1-15. it is certainly possible to put initiative in your favour by putting more points into those stats. (if you have a stealthy build you should already have pretty high agility though) I quite like how it works really, with the dice roll adding more depth to the mechanic. part of the fun of this game is not always knowing what consequences your actions will have, moreso with regards to combat!

i've never really played with psi that much, but i always thought it was supposed to be more of a support than something for you to rely on all the time. correct me if i'm wrong.

Altogether i'm quite pleased with this update, i love the oddity xp system because it makes levelling up so much more exciting than grinding, and the new quests/ dungeons were fantastic -  especially the abandoned warehouse (which i'm curious to learn much more about, especially with regards to the story). Keep up the good work Styg!

[Elhazzared]

Well taken into account that at best you could start with 20 initiative and that would mean severely hamper your other stats and what is rolled has a chance of going up to 15... that is a major. I think rolls should be no higher than between 1 aand 3. It shouldn't be luck dependent on something that is this imporntant. As for having a stealthy character... nope. 5agi, 5dex. I just use the stealth to approuch the enemies to the range and place I feel right and then make sure I also have the first turn. You don't need a super stealthy build.

As for Psi being mostly support, you couldn't be more wrong. It can deal moderate to high damage although it's not really competing with sniper rifles or really good greandes the damage is pretty good, now iclude stuns, abillity to block stuff, paralises, fears.

One of my favorite things to do was to make a copy of each enemy human in range to get them attacking the original form (bilocation used with the feat that makes psy spells AoE) and then use the spell that creates a wall off thus blocking the enemy from attacking me in any way... Hilarious because the duplicates can only be hurt by psi attacks XD... Psi is very real for a primary weapon and it addapts to almost all situations because of it's utillity value even if damage wise it's not the highest when you compare it to a 7 burst assault rifle or a sniper shot or even a mk5 grenade.

[Elhazzared]

Well, it still is quite random. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a step in the right direction and indeed there is always stealth but it's hardly worth not taking stealth and go into combat not knowing who will act first which can just turn into you getting murdered in the first round of combat. The funny thing is that what improves initiative, also improves stealth so it would always be benefitial to take stealth with the abillities that grant initiative which in a way kinda renders it less useful. I think that only one characteristic should count towards it, the one that does not beneficts stealth and again, I still think the randomness is wrong. I can understand what you say that it's not supposed to dominate but it should, it should be an active replacement for the use of stealth... You know, give other options... But that's just my opinion anyway.

As for the merchant. WellI belive quinton buys animal organs, he wasn't when I tried to sell him the stuff but I too thought it would make sense he would. Never the less it is still true that the whole limited buy system is just game hurting. It's not like it limits what a player sells and what he'll just end up throwing away because he can't sell, it only increases the furstation of having to sell the items due to the sheer time factor involved. It ends up being a waste of time, not even a time sink but pure waste of time trying to sell everything and that leads to frustation that isn't even coming from the game being hard but rather from a silly mechanic... I also merits that as I said, you cannot make trades fairer to minimise your loss buy using less valueable items to try to round values up as even as possible because the currency was made in a weird way.

[Barrelsoup Chef]

This is stuff that is actually worth a lot of money but where are the buyers? Not only there is none, but judging from the quantities of stuff merchants buy I'd sell probably 3 pieces and then wait 90 minutes for them to reset to be able to sell more. This is just plain wrong and bear in mind, I have barelly played but already I am unable to sell stuff that I have no use for and that is worth quite a bit of money... I haven't managed to run into weight problems and I was sure I wasn't going to early game, that is why I thought of only atempting the first quest but if 10 minutes into the game I am already having these problems with selling stuff, I can't imagine how horrible it will become later on.

1. Your room can be used as storage (stash loot, sell later).
2. The whole idea of the new economy system is to discourage people from all stuff they don't need. Just do not pick that stuff up.
3. The loot that you can't sell like those hearts ain't nothing compared to the loot you can sell later on. It is more easy to find top-notch guns in excellent condition (either repaired or found in perfect shape). Money isn't a issue in this patch.

Sure a pure Psi build is possible from the beggining, but it's at a major disadvantage.

I really disagree with this statement. Last game I had a Psi-build and I think the Psi-build is the most CHEAP build at the moment. In the beginning it is hard because you must earn some money first to buy those expensive psiboosters, but later on when there is enough money to go around, you will have a 'unlimited' supply of psi. Also your psi doesn't need any repairs. Plus to think that psi doesn't cost you any weight! Only a few psiboosters, can't be more than all my guns and bullets I am carrying .

[Elhazzared]

epili - Lose a coin here and a coin there and you're lossing quite a few because you are forced to do multiple trades. Not so hurtful up ahead but it is a pain in the ass in the beggining.

Banggunner - sure you can stash stuff. That only means that the amount of stuff you have to sell keeps on increasing if you simply sell what you can, stash the rest and continue the game.

The new economic system does not discourages players from picking everything up, in fact it's naive to think that it will. The vast majority of players will pick everything up and will end up so frustated trying to sell everything that they will rather give up the game altogether thinking it was poorly designed, they won't even think of what were the reasonings behind the system.

It doesn't matter what the loot I can't sell is compared to what I get later on, I'm still not being able to sell loot now, loot that would give me more money and make me able to buy more stuff that I need.

One more thing reguarding any RPG that has a loot system. Looting is a major part of the game, it's one of the most core fun factors of the game and what are you doing? Saying, loot only the good stuff, leave the rest... Fun factor is sinking like the titanic.

As for the Psi. I am not sure you read what I said or possibly didn't undestood although I have other posts in this matter. Going up ahead, yes Psi is superior for it lack of need of repairs, buying upgraded weapon versions, etc... But starting it's a huge money sink! The disadvantage of the starting Psi to any other combat oriented build is huge in terms of investment... It's even fair to say that going forward it can be bigger than anything else because even if you use Psi you will still use other weapons which means still invest in ammo and new weapons as upgraded versions become available. Now obviously you don't invest much into repairs except armor wise perhaps and spend much less in ammunition, but still, you spend a lot more into psi boosters because let's be honest, 3 sniper rounds are a lot cheaper than a psi booster. Even making a grenade mk5 is a lot cheaper than a psi booster and much more effective than any spell combinations you can throw at the enemy for the cost of one psi booster.

What I mean here is that shroomhead was a decent feat that balanced this out, if there was a problem with it was having to go back to he nearest mindshroom to recover which resulted in a lot of down time... The changes not only made the skill totally useless, but made Psi builds a lot more expensive and by comparison, less balanced especially early on.

[LazyMonk]

Your idea of looting is very personal. Looting is not about traveling with a wheel barrel gathering every item in the game. I know it might be for you, but that's your own idea of fun.
Don't claim it as a fact. The game didn't became less fun because it broke your looting rules.
It became less fun to you, and i am sorry to hear that.

To me, and this is my personal opinion so it is worth what it is, i find the looting at the game much more fun now.
I am having more fun with Underrail now than ever before.

Glad you gave it a try.

Edit: I should have read the whole thread and erased some parts of my post.

[Elhazzared]

Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting. If you are forced not to loot or loot less anyway then it detracts from the looting part of the game... No game in which there is a loot system is it made in order for you not to pick up everything.

It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though. I also fear for the success of the game once it's fully release to try and go forward with this because quite frankly, I can't see that many people enjoying this looting system... I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits... The last one not being a major gripe but it would be nice just as well. At the end of the days these are just gymics that waste time rather than serve the purpose they intend.