Author Topic: Stealth Knife Build - feedback and opinions on some game mechanics in general  (Read 12501 times)

Mark The Red

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Hello everyone,

After not playing for a long, long time, i decided to start playing again this wonderful game from my country. I haven't really played the game until the end nor have i started the expansion yet.
I decided on a Stealth Knife build focusing on critical, with traps and crafting. Here is the build so far, i am level 10, playing on Normal & Classic:

STR - 3
DEX - 12
AGI - 10
CON - 3
PER - 3
WILL - 5
INT - 6

Melee 60 (100)
Dodge 30 (48)
Evasion 30 (48)
Stealth 60 (114)
Lock-picking 45 (75)
Traps 40 (67)
Mechanics 50 (58)
Electronics 15 (17)
Biology 45 (52)
Tailoring 45 (52)

Feats:
Nimble
Recklessness
Interloper
Opportunist
Cheap-shots
Expose Weakness (armor is my enemy, this helps a lot).
Cut-Throat

Please provide feedback on the build, the idea is to continue These 4 Crafting lines to get the Spying Endoscope (total Assassin flavor, i read about it existence on the Wiki), go full poison on Bear Traps and Caltrops and craft me some nice daggers and armor, and after invest more in Dodge and Evasion, while going full on Stealth, Melee, Mercantile and Traps. I am aiming for a Stealth control build, playing with Traps, Grenades (i will level some Throwing later), and crafting, to be as close to an Melee Assassin as i can ever be. Cut-Throat to me is an all star.

I have just now finished Depot A, and i have noticed some things. First, the game seems too easy, in terms that i am FULL of money due to a ton of item drops and (i guess) points in Mercantile. I am able to buy all the traps (Mines), Grenades and Medicine that i need, without needing to even craft them, i have that much money. Also, i noticed that with some good planning, most of the encounters were super easy. I honestly had much more issues with Raider base in the mission in the compound with Gorsky, than with the Mutants in Depot A. I just suited up a Mutated Leather Armor i bought from Blaine and hacked away, with no traps needed.

The only issues were at first no hacking (which is fine by me) and machines & robots (which i now deal by buying tons of Mines & Grenades with cold cash). I have a full storage of items in Junkyard all with expensive guns and armors and what not, that i cannot even carry with me even if i had 20 STR.

Is this supposed to go this way, to be this easy i mean. I am mostly concerned about the amount of cash (and Mercantile) i get and the way i am leveling (too fast imho), i think i am really overleved and overgeared for some shouldbetough areas like Balors place etc. This was all not my experience when i first played it (at least not cash, i had no Mercantile, but i did not level this fast).

What are your experiences? Is Mercantile important dialogue or story wise, i read somewhere that it is really important in Expedition, would be nice if someone can confirm.
Should i restart on Hard (i really dislike upping difficulty that simply imbalances the game without any true strategic meaning).


Thank you all in advance.

PS. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT DO CORALS CHARMS DO!?!?   ???

Heavy EDIT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading through all the info i restarted the game and here is the current setup on Normal, Classic, at level 19:

STR - 3
DEX - 14
AGI - 10
CON - 3
PER - 3
WILL - 5
INT - 6

Melee 105
Dodge 105
Evasion 105
Stealth 105
Lock picking 45
Traps 75
Mechanics 95
Electronics 50
Biology 50
Tailoring 105

Nimble
Recklessness
Opportunist
Vile Weaponry
Cheap Shots
Expose Weakness
Ripper
Cutthroat
Critical Power
Weaponsmith
Quick Tinkering
Hunter

Specialization - all into Expose Weakness first.

The focus is on Bleeding, Critical and combat from Stealth. Biology there is to craft bear traps with Poisons, Burrower and Crawler for some extra fun and setting up Bear Trap ambushes, even in combat with Quick Tinkering. I'm using a feat enchanced Tungsten Serrated Knife, Infused Rathound leather armor and Infused Siphoner Tabi boots. I also carry an Infused Siphoner Leather amor with me, with serious Resistances to Acid, Fire and Cold (when i'm fighting pesky Mutants and the like). I wanted to play with Caltrops but there was no place to include Sure Step so far. I am also using some medicine, i almost exclusively craft Adrenaline shots a lot. They just fit very well in the mobile high crit assasin build when i do need to fight outside stealth for longer.

So far this build is an absolute beast. I don't even need to use EMP stuff on robots, one attack round starting with Expose Weakness and even Taser combined is enough to completely destroy a Plasma Walker. 300% critical damage with Ripper is insane. Flashbang and trap setups for bigger groups. Cut Throat is fun with Cheap Shots or Flashbangs.
And i have only finished SGS, Junkyard, Foundry and some roaming around. I found some place called Hecate Research outpost. I googled and saw it contains a late game quest item so i just wrecked everything inside, got the item needed and stashed it in a barrel in the Merchants part of Core city, hope it stays there :D.

I am really looking forward to the Expedition part, as i've read enemies are much tougher there.

Hope this info helps any future knife builder.

P.S. I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT RATHOUND PAW CHARM DOES! :)


EDIT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lvl 27 now, started Expedition at 25. Man this DLC favors ranged. I decided i to stop the native attacks by killing their leaders, and unless you can find a safe spot to land unnoticed, you are in for hell as a  stealth character as they just swarm you. Jet combat is not an issue because i bought Torpedo, and i just rush n stab everything. The core of my damage comes from Traps, Expose Weakness and criticals, from my Super Steel Serrated knife. I have only seen ONE Energy edge, and at 46 quality, pure junk. I can handle Strongmen with ease, and was even able to kill a Naga easily. Uncanny Dodge is an absolute MVP for the heavy hitters and mob fights. The only true issue i had was with Magnars Ghost, had to hit run chunk it for an hour for 4-5 dmg per hit.. I am yet to dig into the real story as i am busy with cleaning the Natives first, but unless i encounter more Ghosts of the kind, there will be no issues. I cant talk with Yngwar, so i think i am just going to kill him...


Final EDIT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I finished the game. The build is really really viable, i made some mistakes here and there with assigning skill points and taking some feats like dirty kick (which i did use a lot though), but overall, critical knives hit like a truck. Expose Weakness is an absolute MVP against anything with armor, and i was able to slice through Strongmen, Nagas, and the final boss with ease (boss died in turns). Finding a good Energy edge was hell though, i found one as a random loot by the very ending of Expedition, not cool. Natives main Boss (second fight) was a real pain without the specific item. All in all, by the end i didn't even need traps or tactics, just rush and slice everything. And oh, oh! Alongside Expose Weakness, Uncanny Dodge made heavy hitters simply invalid.

That is all from me here. I hope someone uses this data for their own builds, it was fun. I am going to start a new one now, will post a new thread soon.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 10:06:34 am by Mark The Red »

KnifegaF

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Looks pretty good. I suggest fancy footwork when you can. Cutthroat is pretty shit but if you are doing it to fit the theme then I get it. I suggest investing in electronics more too. Shock knives and energy knives can really boost your damage output. Also interloper is pretty meh except on a couple weapons. I haven’t encountered a section I couldn’t stealth without it. The MP out of stealth is also less than what you would have gotten with sprint

I also don’t think EW is necessary with knives but skipping it might hurt
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 12:29:04 am by KnifegaF »

Mark The Red

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Cut-Throat - It is VERY thematic for me and ALSO a one shot kill for most solo enemies. The fact that it ignores armor makes killing lone armored soldiers pure gold. It also works on humanoids, so getting Mutants from Stealth is just a bonus. I have a feeling i will use this a lot in Expedition, saw a lot of humanoids and tribals in the trailers.

Electronics - i wanted to focus on poisons (again theme), because i love bear traps combined with Opportunist, but as i said, it seems i can buy anything i want without crafting for now...
The damage i deal now is pretty huge, when i get ripped it will go sky high.

Interloper - i wanted something that will ensure my Cutthroat goes off and so that i can be more mobile when going through an enemy camp (Also theme). I considered dropping it, but it seems to go really well with Cut-throat, and to set up some traps. I am thinking of getting Trap Expert so that i can fast plant traps while in stealth. The whole idea is that i start combat under my terms without needing to run around killing everyone, let them come to me (or my traps :) )

Expose Weakness- i thought i would need something against armor that would combine good with Opportunist and Taser. But again, i did not expect to be flooded with cash..

KnifegaF

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Cut-Throat - It is VERY thematic for me and ALSO a one shot kill for most solo enemies. The fact that it ignores armor makes killing lone armored soldiers pure gold. It also works on humanoids, so getting Mutants from Stealth is just a bonus. I have a feeling i will use this a lot in Expedition, saw a lot of humanoids and tribals in the trailers.

Electronics - i wanted to focus on poisons (again theme), because i love bear traps combined with Opportunist, but as i said, it seems i can buy anything i want without crafting for now...
The damage i deal now is pretty huge, when i get ripped it will go sky high.

Interloper - i wanted something that will ensure my Cutthroat goes off and so that i can be more mobile when going through an enemy camp (Also theme). I considered dropping it, but it seems to go really well with Cut-throat, and to set up some traps. I am thinking of getting Trap Expert so that i can fast plant traps while in stealth. The whole idea is that i start combat under my terms without needing to run around killing everyone, let them come to me (or my traps :) )

Expose Weakness- i thought i would need something against armor that would combine good with Opportunist and Taser. But again, i did not expect to be flooded with cash..

Cutthroat has a bunch of issues. It requires either incap or stealth, it costs 25 AP, it doesn't work on anything that isn't humanoid, long CD unless specced, it requires specific positioning, and there are also enemies immune to stun. That's a lot of drawbacks to take out only one enemy type at the cost of a feat when there's so many feats a knife can benefit from universally upfront. The AP cost alone is a huge problem. You can eventually reach 5 AP swings and with a proper build you will more often than not spend less AP just using auto attack to kill an enemy than you would using Cutthroat. For theme I get it though

Electronics-As you said you can buy most of the traps.

Interloper- I've just never had a scenario where I couldn't do what I needed to do without interloper but by all means go for it. Just gave my two cents on the feat. I would suggest quick tinkering over Trap expert. You can lay your traps down instantly so you can do it right in front of someones face and then scoot away without anyone noticing. That won't work with trap expert

Expose weakness- Shock knives and energy knives make it irrelevant in my eyes but it's not like its a terrible waste or anything.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 01:44:14 am by KnifegaF »

Mark The Red

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Thanks very much for the input.

Cut-Throat - I don't know, i just love the flavor of Cut-Throat, but i see your points.

Interloper - again, i see your points, this is just a quality of life Feat :), just like Traps Expert. The Quick tinkering AP cost is huge now.

Expose Weakness - i just Googled Energy Knives and i think you may be right.

I could easily replace Interloper and Expose Weakness with, for example, Vile Weaponry and Quick Tinkering.

I am getting very concerned about the easy game play of Depot A so far, which is supposed to be a hell for early game.

I am seriously considering starting a new game on hard, and focusing on Knives (Throwing and Melee) and Traps, along with Poisons and Electronics ( i very much want Tasers, EMP and the cool Spying Endoscope) and WITHOUT Mercantile, so that i get a balanced challenge at least.

Also, i am very annoyed that i cannot get both Dodge and Evasion without sacrificing a lot of skill points.

What are your thoughts on Parry??? Seems like a good supplement to Dodge? or Just go dodge to 40 and get Uncanny Dodge instead?

EDIT: Oh my, oh my... i just discovered Shock Shurikens. I can also throw vials of Acid. Wow, this could really save some skill points...
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 02:01:35 am by Mark The Red »

KnifegaF

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Thanks very much for the input.

Cut-Throat - I don't know, i just love the flavor of Cut-Throat, but i see your points.

Interloper - again, i see your points, this is just a quality of life Feat :), just like Traps Expert. The Quick tinkering AP cost is huge now.

Expose Weakness - i just Googled Energy Knives and i think you may be right.

I could easily replace Interloper and Expose Weakness with, for example, Vile Weaponry and Quick Tinkering.

I am getting very concerned about the easy game play of Depot A so far, which is supposed to be a hell for early game.

I am seriously considering starting a new game on hard, and focusing on Knives (Throwing and Melee) and Traps, along with Poisons and Electronics ( i very much want Tasers, EMP and the cool Spying Endoscope) and WITHOUT Mercantile, so that i get a balanced challenge at least.

Also, i am very annoyed that i cannot get both Dodge and Evasion without sacrificing a lot of skill points.

What are your thoughts on Parry??? Seems like a good supplement to Dodge? or Just go dodge to 40 and get Uncanny Dodge instead?

No problem, and don't get me wrong those are just personal nitpicks. The build is more than fine. With regards to trap expert vs. quick tinkering. Yes it costs 25 but the idea is it doesn't matter outside of combat. You drop your trap, leave, and your AP is replinshed before it's an issue. If you mean it's a problem in combat well it's still better than expert since it can't even be used in combat.

I'm not a fan of parry, dodge, or evasion. I don't like my survival hinging on chance but I can sorta get behind uncanny since its guaranteed. I typically favor High MP and CC to stay alive. Preference though.

Bruno

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For armor/robots, an energy knife is your best friend. If you can spare the electronics and mechanics to make one yourself, you are golden.
(I am not even sure you can find/buy energy knives, only shock?)

Dodge/evasion, since they are not 100% safe, those skills will only work well on a character who can take some hits, to minimize the hits taken. For a light armor, stealth character, this means a 10 Con high HP damage reduction build. For you, with low HPs, you have to not get hit at all, Dodge/Evasion is poor value for invested points.

Difficulty wise, I prefer oddity over classic, personal choice. Classic has danger of over-leveling, makes for poor progression and a desire to kill everyone for no RP-reason. Not cool.


Assassin is very fun. Once you discover smoke grenades, your assassin-ness will reach full power!

Mark The Red

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Armor/robots - agreed, although i can buy anything i can't craft.

Dodge/Evasion - i am scared of playing without them :D, but i will try. With my current game, enemies miss a lot.

Difficulty - i do not like the oddity. Classic is the way for me, but yeah i am scared of getting to level 30 before i even near the game ending, that would be a MAJOR let down. Although, i do not kill anything that does not need to be killed, I've no such impulses, nor do i hit for re-spawn of enemies. As i said i am level 10 at Depot A.

Can anyone confirm if Mercantile or Persuasion have any REAL value for the game outside of money hoarding and finishing some quests the "right" way. Mercantile seems way overpowered on Normal for me. Is it the same for Hard ? (i will never play Dominating).

DID YOU SAY SMOKE GRENADES?! :)



Niko

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Knife biased, id est; always 3-10(+)-7-9-3-3-5
Sprint
Anything
Anything
Anything
Expose Weakness
Fancy Footwork
GG

Powered knives for robots, TM and AdrShots for more AP when needed, and pop bubble in tough fights. Can beat anything in the game. Seriously.

Niko

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Armor/robots - agreed, although i can buy anything i can't craft.

Dodge/Evasion - i am scared of playing without them :D, but i will try. With my current game, enemies miss a lot.

Difficulty - i do not like the oddity. Classic is the way for me, but yeah i am scared of getting to level 30 before i even near the game ending, that would be a MAJOR let down. Although, i do not kill anything that does not need to be killed, I've no such impulses, nor do i hit for re-spawn of enemies. As i said i am level 10 at Depot A.

Can anyone confirm if Mercantile or Persuasion have any REAL value for the game outside of money hoarding and finishing some quests the "right" way. Mercantile seems way overpowered on Normal for me. Is it the same for Hard ? (i will never play Dominating).

DID YOU SAY SMOKE GRENADES?! :)

What strikes me as fucking odd, is you never tried how the game looks like on DOMINATING. Are you kidding me? You are seriously missing out on those tough fights if you do not try it :D
I first did max difficulty after I had like 50 hours on easy/normal and beat the Depot. I tried hard for a few hours after that, and then switched to DOMINATING. I never ever looked back after that. The game changes completely. Everything is better. Your build actually matters! And on DOM there is content that you will never ever see on lower difficulties either...
Do not theory craft anything, it does not work. You need to know every fight to win the game.

Thanks, and yes, you are welcome.
...Welcome to UnderRail...there is no sanity


And to add to this seriously legit advice of a post:
The game has two difficulty checks where you figure out if you got it. First is early game biggie, where you unlock the map, and the second one comes later.
Funny shit though, the second one made me restart harder than the first check. So be careful what you are going into. This game will suck your soul right out of your body.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 09:34:42 pm by Niko »

Mark The Red

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Sprint - why is everyone so hot on this Feat, i don't get it. I fight from stealth, and with 10 DEX, 10 AGI and 0% armor penalty i can outrun anything...

I very much dislike playing against intentionally overpowered enemies just for the sake of it. But what i also don't like is breaking the game by playing smart, this just shows poor design. This is why i think Mercantile (which no one has yet commented on yet :( :( ) seems so busted to me, at least on normal.

Dominating - i simply don't see whats so good about it. The game is not fundamentally different, just more enemies that are tougher?

On my first play through with a build similar to this, i got all the way to Core City and the nearby Train stations (this was before expedition) and i was steamrolling everything from stealth. I got level 20 way before the final boss... Lunatic Mall was a breeze...they did not even register me..

Rather than just spiking the difficulty to the max, i want to intentional limit myself to Knives (melee & Throwing), Traps (Mostly Bear or whatever i can scavenge) and Poisons (all of them), to get the most Assassin feel i can get. I already see robots becoming my most hated problem. I figure without buying the more expensive stuff, Acid Flasks (however low their damage may be) are my best bet, but against high HP enemies it will be tough. And also DAMN BURROWERS. I hate them more than Death Stalkers....


Niko

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Sprint - why is everyone so hot on this Feat, i don't get it. I fight from stealth, and with 10 DEX, 10 AGI and 0% armor penalty i can outrun anything...

I very much dislike playing against intentionally overpowered enemies just for the sake of it. But what i also don't like is breaking the game by playing smart, this just shows poor design. This is why i think Mercantile (which no one has yet commented on yet :( :( ) seems so busted to me, at least on normal.

Dominating - i simply don't see whats so good about it. The game is not fundamentally different, just more enemies that are tougher?

On my first play through with a build similar to this, i got all the way to Core City and the nearby Train stations (this was before expedition) and i was steamrolling everything from stealth. I got level 20 way before the final boss... Lunatic Mall was a breeze...they did not even register me..

Rather than just spiking the difficulty to the max, i want to intentional limit myself to Knives (melee & Throwing), Traps (Mostly Bear or whatever i can scavenge) and Poisons (all of them), to get the most Assassin feel i can get. I already see robots becoming my most hated problem. I figure without buying the more expensive stuff, Acid Flasks (however low their damage may be) are my best bet, but against high HP enemies it will be tough. And also DAMN BURROWERS. I hate them more than Death Stalkers....

Hello Mark,

You have never needed to have a real fight in UnderRail, so do not craft images of it.
Sprint is your go-to skill, always :) Agi 6, or bust.

The tips and builds are FOR dominating, you do not need to understand it, you need to play it.
The moment you figure you can not beat something because the game is unfair, like; has shit design, has too little tools, cooldowns suck, soft locked, no items, grenade damage sucks, darkness is a bad mechanic, well....add your own list of stuff that would help you rant all the shit you would want.

I do not see any of that rant here. You are thinking of playing, but it sounds as if you are scared of a fight. A lot of us in the forums are here to give pointers, not to banter. Feel free to fail 50 builds to try beat dominating, and then come back with your shit list when you did get "this far".



Bruno

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Sprint - why is everyone so hot on this Feat, i don't get it. I fight from stealth, and with 10 DEX, 10 AGI and 0% armor penalty i can outrun anything...

I very much dislike playing against intentionally overpowered enemies just for the sake of it. But what i also don't like is breaking the game by playing smart, this just shows poor design. This is why i think Mercantile (which no one has yet commented on yet :( :( ) seems so busted to me, at least on normal.

Dominating - i simply don't see whats so good about it. The game is not fundamentally different, just more enemies that are tougher?

On my first play through with a build similar to this, i got all the way to Core City and the nearby Train stations (this was before expedition) and i was steamrolling everything from stealth. I got level 20 way before the final boss... Lunatic Mall was a breeze...they did not even register me..

Rather than just spiking the difficulty to the max, i want to intentional limit myself to Knives (melee & Throwing), Traps (Mostly Bear or whatever i can scavenge) and Poisons (all of them), to get the most Assassin feel i can get. I already see robots becoming my most hated problem. I figure without buying the more expensive stuff, Acid Flasks (however low their damage may be) are my best bet, but against high HP enemies it will be tough. And also DAMN BURROWERS. I hate them more than Death Stalkers....

Sprint is always nice to have, especially for melee fighters. However, with Fancy Footwork and a fast melee weapon you will have a lot of MPs. If you also get Psi Contraction, you have extra MPs on demand, so you really don't need Sprint.

On Classic mode, you get XP per kill, on DOMINATING there are a lot of extra enemies to kill. As mentioned above, you will level quickly. This is why I always play on Oddity (though I only play on Hard, it also has more enemies than Normal).

I mentioned the powered knifes because they go through mechanical armor and robots so well. The best are the ones crafted with an Energy Edge Emitter. They deal very high energy damage, but lower the mech damage of the knife by 10%, and cost a lot of power per hit. I recommend to craft a Tichrome Energy Knife.