W2C ammo did not need a nerf

[Drizzle]

Energy pistols: use only one ammo type, batteries, which can easily be bought in bulk at any electronics merchant. Free to ignore resistances as there is only one very rare enemy that actually has high enough energy resistance to be a threat, in which case you just bring a polarized laser pistol, or switch to electroshock which you should already have: it's your best AoE gun.

Chem guns: use only two ammo types/guns for the most part, easily buy components in bulk. Rarely is an enemy immune to all of acid, cold, and heat.

Crossbows: crafting special bolts is straightforward enough outside of Mk3 Incendiary, and Elemental Bolts makes each one count for double so there isn't much scarcity, you only have to juggle which ones are equipped on your belt.

Firearms: graphite is not plentiful unless you use merchant refresh. You never use W2C for regular enemies, as it's expensive to buy in large enough numbers to use exclusively, and it takes time to gather enough graphite to craft a decent quantity; and since you can only deal mechanical damage you can't exactly switch to a different ammo type if an enemy has high mechanical resistance. No, special bullets are a joke and a waste of time considering no merchant sells them and you can still only create the same quantity per craft as old W2C, which used to be a far better alternative; and the damage type depends on which caliber you're crafting the special bullets with. Sniper rifles suffer the most from this as most special bullets are completely useless due to fixed, non-scaling low damage, and they never hit threshold, only resistance.

If the point was to add more ammo management to firearms, why the hell didn't the other three ranged weapon types get touched, which all have an easier time with both ammo scarcity and dealing with resistances? Special bullet buffs are not worth anything when their damage is fixed and so is the caliber each type is attached to. As a firearm build, W2C is the only real option you have for dealing with enemies that have high mechanical damage resistance. The funniest part is that nobody will ever use special bullets outside of meme builds since they can only be obtained from crafting, it's too much hassle for barely any reward over simply buying some W2C at the common merchants. All this nerf did was make certain NPCs require more bullets pumped into them, not incentivize me to use other bullet types.

[harperfan7]

shut up, drizzle

[WhiteGrey]

Much like shotguns, bullet based weapons should give up damage in favor of penetration. Forcing the player to make a choice between armor penetration and damage would be an improvement. Games are about choices, after all. The only issue might be new players, since it is easier for the inexperienced to default to a single ammo type when confused.

[Turbodevil]

yeah they did, W2C is the best way to deal physical damage to physical immune things and it is limitted only by carry capacity

[Tytyger]

actually bolts  arent easy to craft, i didnt have a moment in my playthrough where i stockpiled a high amount of high tier bolts, shock bolts are especially notorious since you basically shooting money

[Barry]

I agree that the W2C nerf wasn't good, actually crafting enough bullets is a very expensive endeavor and merchants barely sell any W2C, most of Expedition as a result is now harder due to how common heavy-resistance enemies are.

[Drizzle]

I don't think I made my point clear enough. All other weapons have at least one tool to deal with enemies resistant to their damage type, be that resistance reduction or switching to a different main damage type. W2C ammunition is the only feasible way firearms have to deal with armored NPCs. It's like if Expose Weakness got nerfed and you got told to use the new poison coatings instead. You'd still have no choice but to take EW, despite it being weaker.

Crossbows are the only other ranged weapon that has fixed elemental damage ammunition, and they not only have a feat to double the damage of that ammo, they also have different tiers that deal increasingly more damage. Special bullets have none of that.

This was an overall nerf to firearms, sniper rifles especifically, while leaving other ranged weapons that are just as powerful intact.

[Ploluap]

It sure is a nerf.

Have you played a lot in the last version with guns ? Does it make things much harder ?

[harperfan7]

level 22, 11 per (13 with juice and adaptive goggles), non-refurbished, no gun lube, no food, 3 points in full auto spec, suppressive + opportunist, blindsiding, concentrated fire, ambush
two bursts

[Tytyger]

level 22, 11 per (13 with juice and adaptive goggles), non-refurbished, no gun lube, no food, 3 points in full auto spec, suppressive + opportunist, blindsiding, concentrated fire, ambush
two bursts

wow, it seems nothing changed

[Drizzle]

level 22, 11 per (13 with juice and adaptive goggles), non-refurbished, no gun lube, no food, 3 points in full auto spec, suppressive + opportunist, blindsiding, concentrated fire, ambush
two bursts

You are too preoccupied with the number side of things for one single type of firearm. I could grab nearly any god damn weapon, melee or ranged, at level 22 and make it look as broken as that screenshot. That was never my point. Since it seems you don't want to read, I'm going to reiterate again and again until it gets drilled into your skull and you finally listen. Underrail has shit AI for NPCs with shit builds, and no amount of number crunching is going to fix the fact that this game is deceptively easy, yes even in Dominating. When you can hit for big numbers with other weapons but somehow firearms get singled out because it's what a first time player gravitates to after Psi, that's called bias.

None of the other weapons got their resistance penetration/alternatives nerfed, despite being as similarly mindless as taking a couple of feats and pressing one hotkey.

[harperfan7]

clinically insane

[Lestat]

Yes, you have accurately described the fact that W2C had number go DOWN, and that other ranged weapons use alternative damage types while firearms simply lower resistance. And the end result is still fine. Burst was the best build. Firearm Pistols with Bullet Time and Stasis are on the same W2C train and it was the easiest build I have ever experienced by a mile. Snipers already deal with optimizing number of shots instead of damage per hit because they overkill so hard.

Anyway, WhiteGrey had it without all the emotion, inverse JHP. Damage down, pen up.

And Crossbows don't even come close to how strong and easy current W2C still is. Xbows have 78 average electric damage with Mk3 Shock Bolts + Elemental Bolts, and that will only be buffed by crit damage. Their minimum AP per shot is 14. Their mech damage evaporates against the various 65%+ DR enemies because of increased mech damage incurred. With Cyclon Anatomically Aware Scope, Bowyer, Crit Power+10, and Sharpshooter that's 445% crit damage or 5.45x damage on a crit. 425 average on a crit for 14 AP.

An endgame .44 Hammerer has about 78 average damage on just the gun. Mine has 80.5, but I'll lower it to 78. With dex food it has 14 AP to shoot, or 7 AP with Bullet Time. With just 10 Per and level 22 skill, no buffs, it has 2.16x damage from skill, or 168 average damage. Sharpshooter, Crit Power, no spec is 210% crit or 3.1x damage on crit. 520 average on a crit for 14 AP. Adding crit power spec, the ability to gain more skill points for damage, the ability to have buffs that increase skill or lower AP (Dex/Per), and a button that doubles their damage shows Crossbows are not a part of any conversation about fairness or balance when it comes to dealing with armor, these very high DR enemies are still going to just be plinked down by burst, pistols, and snipers in comparison to Xbows.

So they are the weapon that struggles with armor, guns do not. Melee, particularly unarmed struggles much more than guns, having their armor pen tied to a one-at-a-time cooldown based feat with unarmed getting a shock tickles as their ""armor pen"" weapon enhancement.

Would love to see someone break down Chem/Energy damage potential compared to .44 Hammer, Burst, and snipers to see how they compare against JHP vs squishies, or W2C vs Industrial Robot tier enemies. Your anger is only justified if they went from worse to even worse. Justify your anger beyond emotion.

[KnifegaF]

https://youtu.be/55NqiAzP0uM

W2C still deals with armor type enemies better than just about anything else minus like e-guns or Chem guns. I’m single bursting bladelings with 5 perception at level 20 with only a few damage increasing feats, no gas, no cheese, and no help. My guns also aren’t above 100q. Don’t pay attention to the fact that I’m not taking damage because it’s irrelevant to my point. Melee will not be able to do this much damage to bladelings with this little investment into damage.

[RewRatt]

It did need a nerf, and I don't even think this is big enough. Like it was said - it should also deal reduced damage.
I mean, we have - shock, incendiary and acid rounds on top to deal elemental damage. Gun users are not really out of options.
And any decent Assault Rifle or SMG build still deals so much damage, than I can shred heavy targets with regular ammo anyway. Now some rare enemies like snails or DC shit do need AP to be damaged - but melee builds suffer the same and the reason they get Energy or Electric damage to supplement.

W2C is still very strong.