What do you think about an SMG build?

[Pipebombtoilet]

What do you think of SMGs and their viability?

[ShoggothWhisperer]

Every weapon is viable in Underrail, as long as you have the proper build for it. My personal opinion is that SMGs are just worse ARs, since they don't get concentrated fire and deal less damage. They benefit from dex, which is good, but they shoot so many bullets that you frequently have to reload and repair your guns. If I were to rank the guns it would be AR>Pistol>E-Pistol>SMG>Shotguns>Chem Pistol>Sniper.

[RewRatt]

Extremely viable, although not as powerful as an AR build, but better in other ways, such as silent assasinations with Mini-Izu (after refurbishment, best silent SMG option, period). Both mixed Dexterity and Perception, as well as Versatility work very well. I would recommend 7 STR for Full-Auto though, it is an extreme boost to firepower.
Current favourite is this build:

https://underrail.info/build/?HgcOBgMGAwfCoEEAAB4AZEAqNzh0bDM7ZAA3AMKdAAA-TzlNMBU3AiYrSTsnJMKHwoXCtU4Wwp7CreKfogXioo0C4qeqA-KokgXfvw

[RewRatt]

Every weapon is viable in Underrail, as long as you have the proper build for it. My personal opinion is that SMGs are just worse ARs, since they don't get concentrated fire and deal less damage. They benefit from dex, which is good, but they shoot so many bullets that you frequently have to reload and repair your guns. If I were to rank the guns it would be AR>Pistol>E-Pistol>SMG>Shotguns>Chem Pistol>Sniper.

Why do you rank Pistol so high? Just because of .44 Hammerer and Bullet Time + Stasis? In my experience they are quite bad vs. enemies with Pseudo-spatial Projection, and damage range is horrid - only becoming somewhat reliable late game. I can get 9(!) 300+ damage crits with a single burst from 8.6mm Muzzled Rapid Steelcat from a single unconditional burst at similar cost to a single .44 Hammerer shot. SMG's cut through PSP like its not there and burst down crowds easily. With new refurbished Tommy Gun and Better crits, you can reach 210% crit damage. SMG damage output is honestly insane and not reliant on a small window of action or Special Attacks as Pistols are.

So why do you think pistols are better?

[ShoggothWhisperer]

Every weapon is viable in Underrail, as long as you have the proper build for it. My personal opinion is that SMGs are just worse ARs, since they don't get concentrated fire and deal less damage. They benefit from dex, which is good, but they shoot so many bullets that you frequently have to reload and repair your guns. If I were to rank the guns it would be AR>Pistol>E-Pistol>SMG>Shotguns>Chem Pistol>Sniper.

Why do you rank Pistol so high? Just because of .44 Hammerer and Bullet Time + Stasis? In my experience they are quite bad vs. enemies with Pseudo-spatial Projection, and damage range is horrid - only becoming somewhat reliable late game. I can get 9(!) 300+ damage crits with a single burst from 8.6mm Muzzled Rapid Steelcat from a single unconditional burst at similar cost to a single .44 Hammerer shot. SMG's cut through PSP like its not there and burst down crowds easily. With new refurbished Tommy Gun and Better crits, you can reach 210% crit damage. SMG damage output is honestly insane and not reliant on a small window of action or Special Attacks as Pistols are.

So why do you think pistols are better?

I use this build for firearm pistols:
 https://underrail.info/build/?HgUQAwUHAwdGMADCoAAATmM5AABnZw83ZwAAAEZoAF8BFzE6HlvCo8OSSybDkVkSEcKzAgvin4QB4rWuCeK9hAXfvw
I usually prefer refurbished wasteland hawk since it dazes and stuns enemies in melee range, and lets you proc opportunist. It has good enough damage to where most enemies die in a single shot, and it's a guaranteed kill on anything except tanky robots and bosses when using a special attack. I also carry the Butcher's Cleaver coated in leper poison in my off hand, to apply expose weakness and broken ribs. I run special attack boosting goggles since I have 5 special attacks (aimed shot, point shot, kneecap shot, rapid fire, and execute), and since I get 9 ap shots from bullet time I can kill at least 5 enemies on the first turn. A close range Rapid Fire has a 73% chance to stun, which can be followed up with an execute to kill basically any enemy in the game (I used this exact combo to repeatedly kill abomination). I usually kill TC enemies first since they are very dangerous due to bilocation, and I can throw a grenade to kill if a TC enemy ever gets PSP up. With Expose Weakness and W2C ammo, I can kill a Naga in a single rapid fire. E-pistols have a similar reasoning for their high placement, since electroshock pistol can kill 4 enemies with each special attack (aimed shot, point shot, kneecap shot), if you have a smart module and special attack goggles. My main gripe with SMGs is that the you require constant reloading (8.6 steel cat only has 20 max ammo, and with a 9 shot burst that's 2 bursts before reloading), which locks you into bullet strap belt. SMG's are also very high maintenance, since they chew through ammo and repair kits very quickly. Pistols just feel more satisfying to use, while also not being a pain in the ass to maintain.

[Turbodevil]

SMGs are extremely viable but I hate playing them. Extremely low range + extremely high ammo consumption makes them IMO feel like OP high dmg melee build with high maintenance costs. I moved to pistols and never looked back.

Why do you rank Pistol so high? Just because of .44 Hammerer and Bullet Time + Stasis?
Yes

In my experience they are quite bad vs. enemies with Pseudo-spatial Projection
Yes, prioritise psi targets, projections are pistol's weakness.

and damage range is horrid - only becoming somewhat reliable late game.
'Somewhat' is unnecessary but yea, they become OP late game and damage range is much less disadvantage than it seems.

I can get 9(!) 300+ damage crits with a single burst from 8.6mm Muzzled Rapid Steelcat from a single unconditional burst at similar cost to a single .44 Hammerer shot.
No, you can't. Pistols are for Bullet Time and it costs between 7 to 5 AP per shot compared to 14AP SMG burst. And they waste less ammo so less AP is spent on reloading (not to mention the logistics of crafting and carrying it around). Each shot can kill an enemy, allowing to immidiately move to another target thanks to Hit and Run.

With anti personel ammo I could crit up to 2800 dmg in my playthrough. Compared to SMGs pistols have up to 95% hit chance that doesn't decrease with distance when target is well lit, SMG burst have only up to 80% which rapidly decline with range, also lower range. Speaking of hit chance, pistols ignore huge chunk of evasion on close enemies. You definitely don't get 9 crits per bursts unless RNG gods smile upon you.

Speaking of crit, crafted pistols have higher crit chance and crit damage.

Damage is important but remember that enemies have set hit points. If enemy has 400 HP, why do you need 9 300+ crits? For pistols it's different, overkill damage increases probablility of 1 shotting an enemy so you stack it as high as possible and watch everything dying after 1 bullet.


SMG's cut through PSP like its not there and burst down crowds easily. With new refurbished Tommy Gun and Better crits, you can reach 210% crit damage. SMG damage output is honestly insane and not reliant on a small window of action or Special Attacks as Pistols are.
Pistol special attacks are bonkers. But yea, pistols need Bullet Time and special attacks to be good

[RewRatt]

I use this build for firearm pistols:
 https://underrail.info/build/?HgUQAwUHAwdGMADCoAAATmM5AABnZw83ZwAAAEZoAF8BFzE6HlvCo8OSSybDkVkSEcKzAgvin4QB4rWuCeK9hAXfvw
I usually prefer refurbished wasteland hawk since it dazes and stuns enemies in melee range, and lets you proc opportunist. It has good enough damage to where most enemies die in a single shot, and it's a guaranteed kill on anything except tanky robots and bosses when using a special attack. I also carry the Butcher's Cleaver coated in leper poison in my off hand, to apply expose weakness and broken ribs. I run special attack boosting goggles since I have 5 special attacks (aimed shot, point shot, kneecap shot, rapid fire, and execute), and since I get 9 ap shots from bullet time I can kill at least 5 enemies on the first turn. A close range Rapid Fire has a 73% chance to stun, which can be followed up with an execute to kill basically any enemy in the game (I used this exact combo to repeatedly kill abomination). I usually kill TC enemies first since they are very dangerous due to bilocation, and I can throw a grenade to kill if a TC enemy ever gets PSP up. With Expose Weakness and W2C ammo, I can kill a Naga in a single rapid fire. E-pistols have a similar reasoning for their high placement, since electroshock pistol can kill 4 enemies with each special attack (aimed shot, point shot, kneecap shot), if you have a smart module and special attack goggles. My main gripe with SMGs is that the you require constant reloading (8.6 steel cat only has 20 max ammo, and with a 9 shot burst that's 2 bursts before reloading), which locks you into bullet strap belt. SMG's are also very high maintenance, since they chew through ammo and repair kits very quickly. Pistols just feel more satisfying to use, while also not being a pain in the ass to maintain.

Interesting points. But don't you get frustrated by playing a 1 cool-down dependant build like this? Out of Bullet-Time, you have 17-18 AP attacks, meaning 2 per round. And you probably already used AP booster during BT, with a high-to-definite chance of 15AP reduction, meaning 1 shot every other round, unless Eel Sandwitch was taken for 19DEX? And all this at level 26 - way worse below that. And then you get the Misses... oh god.. rolling those on high-AP attacks is fun killing for me personally at least.

I dunno.. I solved SMG repair problem with Dissasemble in this build:
https://underrail.info/build/?HgcOBgMGAwfCoEEAAB4AZEAqNzh0bDM7ZAA3AMKdAAA-TzlNMBU3AiYrSTsnJMKHwoXCtU4Wwp7CreKfogXioo0C4qeqA-KokgXfvw
I can boost Perception by +2 from consumables for total of 241 Skill. Evasion is negated by either Ambush or Entrapment or Stun. Disassemble is also a great source of Repair Kits (recycle full condition items) for Uniques or till you can spec into Dis and money and in extent - ammo. Also SMG's with Full-Auto, allow for a REALLY effective silent assasinations, with Refurbished Mini-Izu and Expertise in mind.

I tried Pistols. I agree with most of your points. But that dependance on Bullet-Time and in extent Stasis for 2 turns of awesomeness is meta-gaming and roulette playing combined, imo.
There is a reason, people bemoan the 1x4 damage spread of .44 Hammerer's. And the build you posted has no mobility, apart from gear, evasion reduction is either melee range or Ambush (which should be taken earlier).

I guess my point is - I almost never F9 playing SMG's, the exact opposite of Pistols... SMG negatives, bar ammo consumption on a certain expedition downwards, can be easiliy negated with 1 Feat. SMG's are at their 100% all the time. They can go 300% with Ambush in effect as that at certain point is 100% Crit's + Evasion reduction. Ambush can be set up with Molotovs, Flares and TK Proxy. Missing is never a problem, as if other targets are near that will likely land on them instead. Also, there is another 50 bullets coming right after.

[Turbodevil]

1 shot every other round

No. This never happens on pistol build. You calculated AP cost wrong, probably missed gunslinger. 14 Dex = 15AP cost per shot, with Point Shot being 7 AP and Rapid Fire costing 22 AP. You get LTI to reduce their (already very short) cooldowns. Also, reducing your turn to 35AP requires many stars to align and can only happen late in fight anyway, after everything is dead (rapid reloader not triggering, not being able to cast Contrraction after spamming LTI and Stasis, using Norwegian Snuff instead of Adrenaline). Pistol build do not shoot once per turn, ever.

There is a reason, people bemoan the 1x4 damage spread of .44 Hammerer's.

The reason being not understanding probabilities, game mechanics and historical record of pistols being bad. Every melee/range weapon deals between 0 (due to misses or low damage roll vs DT + shield) to bazillion damage per AP. Damage spread ratio is infinite. What matters is how likely you are to kill the enemy (and how many APs you are wasting). For pistols this probability is very high due to massive upper damage, high hit and crit chance.

And the build you posted has no mobility, apart from gear

This one I can agree with, what was he thinking... Seriosuly though, Shoggoth's build is solid and clearly contains some thing for fun (like cutthraat) but pistol build can have highest mobility in this game due to Hit and Run.

[peet]

SMG is extremely powerful, just has quality of life issues with ammo management and repairing, but that's fine because it's easy to buy kits and bullets.

Something like this will absolutely stomp through the game, even on dominating:


sorry for the image, im apparently not allowed to post external links?

Tons of AP (commando, rapid reloader, fatal throw, acceleration, etc), mobility (sprint, hit & run), damage (a million bursts and nades) and CC (suppression and grenades)

[ShoggothWhisperer]

Interesting points. But don't you get frustrated by playing a 1 cool-down dependant build like this? Out of Bullet-Time, you have 17-18 AP attacks, meaning 2 per round. And you probably already used AP booster during BT, with a high-to-definite chance of 15AP reduction, meaning 1 shot every other round, unless Eel Sandwitch was taken for 19DEX? And all this at level 26 - way worse below that. And then you get the Misses... oh god.. rolling those on high-AP attacks is fun killing for me personally at least.

I tried Pistols. I agree with most of your points. But that dependance on Bullet-Time and in extent Stasis for 2 turns of awesomeness is meta-gaming and roulette playing combined, imo.
There is a reason, people bemoan the 1x4 damage spread of .44 Hammerer's. And the build you posted has no mobility, apart from gear, evasion reduction is either melee range or Ambush (which should be taken earlier).

I do use Eel sandwich for 19 dex, so 17 ap attacks, and adrenaline for an ap boost. Outside of bullet time I can point shot (8 ap), then attack 3 times, then have enough ap left over to use a drug. With focus stims, crit goggles, infused rat, ect I have a 71% crit chance, and I already have a 200% crit damage bonus, so almost anything that gets hit will usually die in a single shot. I also don't normally usually use stasis or contraction when playing, I just take 70 tm to style on the faceless commander fight and cheese the gauntlet. I usually run commando belt over bullet strap belt, since it increases accuracy, damage, and throwing, so I might replace an attack with a reload when necessary. I can deal with evasion better than an smg build can, since everything that works with smg to reduce evasion works with pistol, and wasteland hawk has a 35% chance to stun for free every time I shoot. I don't need to worry about mobility since I have 10 range, and after the first turn any enemies who would pose a threat are already dead. Also why even bother using a silenced smg on a dex vers build, just use a knife like the cleaver if you really want a silent assassination, you can even poison it with leper poison for more damage. I know pistol builds are very powerful, I did the 3 Masters fight in a single turn, and comfortably did Quad Nagas in 2 (with a little help from my friend All In + SSD), and pistols don't come with nearly as many drawbacks as using an SMG build. Idk, do SMG builds ever get tired of clicking burst over and over again?