Super Slam feat question

[destroyor]

You can reach 20 STR by having 16 STR, wear Rathound Regalia +1, use adrenaline +2 and rathound BBQ +1.

[MirddinEmris]

You can reach 20 STR by having 16 STR, wear Rathound Regalia +1, use adrenaline +2 and rathound BBQ +1.

Or trying to savescum +2 Str out of junkyard suprise every 20 minutes, yes. I was talking about more viable solutions. Rathound Regalia is one of the worst armor in the game, with 3 CON, 4 AGI and this armor he is basically a paper plane trying to fly through incinerator.

[Fenix]

Actually armored sledg is the best one in my experience. With Sprint and good tabis you get enough movement to get around enemies and with super steel armor you can get enough resistance that mechanical damage doesn't bother you. So i would still recommend 6-7 CON sledg build.

I just don't like the concept, or maybe better to paraphrase - I have no fun with it at all. I don't say it is bad or something - it's just no fun for me.

3 CON for a build with a relatively low maneuverability is too savescummy for me.

I have great maneuverability in my siphoner leather armor and tabi boots. And when I'll craft infused one it will get even better.
And I don't like to savescum at all, also I try to use no grenades, or as little as possible.

And you won't hit 20 STR without supersoldier drug which you can get only at the end of the game (and not with your biology skill, i tell you that). With maxed STR what you can expect is to take rat barbecue and inject yourself with adrenaline in combat, then you'll have 17-19 str, meaning only 5-15% accuracy penalty on the hammer.

I can get 100 base in Biology, it is I just don't need it now, or have better options to spent points.
Also, 20 is definitely doable, I don't think Styg would put BH if you can't use it.
Also, if no - I always have usual hammers, not a big loss.

About your build, i think it's good enough to finish the game but you WILL hit a lot of roadblocks where you can get mostly by luck after a lot of reloading.

We will see.

7 PER is almost useless, there just not enough secret places for you to discover with effective 10 PER for it to be even remotely worth it 4 attribute points and 1 feat investment.

Look, the idea for this buld was to rely on stealth and dodge/evasion anyway, so I don't need Con.
Besides, I absolutely don't like to skip sooper sekret parts of the game even if I know all of them, which I don't for Underrail (lol yeah). Builds with Per enough to discover all hidden things is a staple for me, that's why crossbow, or pistol or Psi who have spare points for Per.

I would recommend you to take Pummel and Taste for Blood on your next level ups. Pummel is really good, since under adrenaline you can swing you Balor 3 times for 20 AP each and then still hit someone with Pummel for 10 AP (or taser someone, or take some drug).

I already decided to give Pummel a try, but its usefulness is limited - I'm already using Taser, also drugs cot 10 AP which is a huge penalty compared to doctor's pouch users, so it could be useful if you really need to finish someone, which is rare thing at least on 16 lvl.

Taste for blood also works decently with sedgehammer build since it also gives you one stack for killing someone and with decent sledge build you can expect to kill 1-2 enemies per turn, each one increasing your further damage by 5%, and since sledg deals damage in large spikes, it's a noticeable increase.

I think I'll take defensive or utility feats instead, I think I won't need more damage then I can get with 20 Str and BH or even 18 Str and usual hammer.
So my pick is Nimble, Deflection, and some of these - Super Slam, Pummel, Clothier, Power Management, can only take 3 from 4.

[Fenix]

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGlGYQJgVhBGAbCZAWEkDsGTdPhcOeWQ4o3OTOA+YUO2+hZgtsD5EhADg2XB9UoVAE4QMdNRCjwQA
That's final build where I can't decide (yet) which 3 feat to pick from 4.
Possible 1 offensive and 2 utility - you can't have enough stealth with 4 Agi I think.


Also I want to put it to test against Faceless, I killing all of them.

[destroyor]

It's your game but objectively the 7 PER is a bad choice here. At 4 AGI, your dodge and evasion will fail often even if you max dodge and evasion, plus MP could be another problem as well.

[MirddinEmris]

I have great maneuverability in my siphoner leather armor and tabi boots.

At best it's "ok" maneuverability. Great maneuverability is when you have something like Hit and Run or Fancy Footwork, because that means that after getting close to the enemy and killing it, you can get behind the cover or run far away after. With only 4 AGI and tabi you have enough to get to the enemy, which means it's not that different from guy in heavy armor with Sprint. Good that you have dodge + evasion, but your agi is just too low for it to be the only defense you can rely on with 3 CON (and you didn't max evasion, that's bad, for melee it's more important than dodge, since most guys who try to get close to you will get killed quickly).

Also, 20 is definitely doable, I don't think Styg would put BH if you can't use it.
Also, if no - I always have usual hammers, not a big loss.

I never said you couldn't use it. I said you don't need to aim for 20. You can still use it without 20 STR, you just get accuracy penalty, 5% for each point you are lacking.

Look, the idea for this buld was to rely on stealth and dodge/evasion anyway, so I don't need Con.

The you should've probably put those points in AGI, since PER doesn't do anything for stealth and dodge/evasion. I too like to discover thing with PER, but it is not really useful even when using Oddity xp.

I already decided to give Pummel a try, but its usefulness is limited - I'm already using Taser, also drugs cot 10 AP which is a huge penalty compared to doctor's pouch users, so it could be useful if you really need to finish someone, which is rare thing at least on 16 lvl.

It's usefulness no more limited than that of taser. You can't use taser every turn, it has a cooldown, so you use taser one turn and pummel next. And if you are using setup that is different from tichrome hammer (like with Balor), then you still has those free 10 AP lying around, might as well put them to good use, like using pummel, taser or drugs.

So my pick is Nimble, Deflection, and some of these - Super Slam, Pummel, Clothier, Power Management, can only take 3 from 4.

Super Slam with 3 Con is really not that useful. Even on Easy it's less than 140 damage at lvl 25. Clothier is not that useful for your build, since you want to focus on stealth and evasion and the only fabric that won't push you armor penalty beyond 15% is black and aluminized cloth (blast having 15% penalty and kevlar is 10%), later is killing your stealth and former will get you less than 10 points in stealth (even with 160 quality cloth) from Clothier.

Deflection means that you'll have to keep one weapon slot open constantly and switching to it. If you aim for balor hammer i would recommend keeping it in one slot and tichrome hammer in other. If you need to use Balor, pump up on adrenaline and go to town, then if there is someone left standing, just switch to tichrome and finish them off, because when adrenaline expires it'll be harder to finish someone with just balor, due to accuracy decrease. And again, dodge is less useful for you then evasion, since there are less enemies who go in melee and they will go down first, most probably, since they will be closest to you.

[Fenix]

It's your game but objectively the 7 PER is a bad choice here. At 4 AGI, your dodge and evasion will fail often even if you max dodge and evasion, plus MP could be another problem as well.

You can't have everything, that's a life.

At best it's "ok" maneuverability.

Compared to armored build it is great, or at least not bad in general.
I attack from stealth so MP used to move between targets.

I never said you couldn't use it. I said you don't need to aim for 20. You can still use it without 20 STR, you just get accuracy penalty, 5% for each point you are lacking.

5% is a lot, it is not a rare case I missed with 95% chance to hit, once even 3 times in a row.

The you should've probably put those points in AGI, since PER doesn't do anything for stealth and dodge/evasion.

Stealth is useless when stealthed enemies detects you faster then you are detecting them, it is a death sentence for such build.
Also I don't like reloading.

I too like to discover thing with PER, but it is not really useful even when using Oddity xp.

It is not about usefulness, it is about fun, no sekkrets - no fun.

You can't use taser every turn, it has a cooldown, so you use taser one turn and pummel next.

That's a good point, I'll take it.

Clothier is not that useful for your build, since you want to focus on stealth and evasion and the only fabric that won't push you armor penalty beyond 15% is black and aluminized cloth (blast having 15% penalty and kevlar is 10%), later is killing your stealth and former will get you less than 10 points in stealth (even with 160 quality cloth) from Clothier.

Even 10 points is good enouh, also you forgot balaclava and ninja tabi, these bonus points gives spare skill points from stealth which I can put into evasion.

Deflection means that you'll have to keep one weapon slot open constantly and switching to it. If you aim for balor hammer i would recommend keeping it in one slot and tichrome hammer in other. If you need to use Balor, pump up on adrenaline and go to town, then if there is someone left standing, just switch to tichrome and finish them off, because when adrenaline expires it'll be harder to finish someone with just balor, due to accuracy decrease. And again, dodge is less useful for you then evasion, since there are less enemies who go in melee and they will go down first, most probably, since they will be closest to you.

Agree, but it can be situationally useful if you plan to finish fight in these 2-3 turns, or you can just go with TiChrome and have that bonus all the time.

[MirddinEmris]

Btw, what difficulty you are playing at?

Compared to armored build it is great, or at least not bad in general.

Didn't i just said that armored build with 6 agi, tabi and Sprint has about same mobility that yours does? And unlike your, he doesn't need to take cover. So, no, it's not great by any stretch of imagination. I played several sledgehammer builds, i know what i'm talking about.

I attack from stealth so MP used to move between targets.

So, that means you don't have movement points in the first round at all, meaning having less mobility than armored build and that you are a sitting duck for a whole round.

5% is a lot, it is not a rare case I missed with 95% chance to hit, once even 3 times in a row.

Numbers say otherwise. Damage from balor hammer usually around 2 times more than tichrome hammer, meaning that even with 5% accuracy hit, you get much higher dpr and kill  your opponents much quicker. And if you can't bear that terrible 5% accuracy drp, then just forget about using it at all, unless you want either of those: 1) wait till end game 2) wear crappy armor 3) abuse junkyard surprise every 20 min or so.

Stealth is useless when stealthed enemies detects you faster then you are detecting them, it is a death sentence for such build.
Also I don't like reloading.

Yeah, and by increasing your ability to detect them, you decreased your ability to hide from them (stealth depends on AGI), so you basically gained nothing in that area. And if you don't like reloading, then 3 CON and 4 AGI build without good armor is really not the best choice for you.

Even 10 points is good enouh, also you forgot balaclava and ninja tabi, these bonus points gives spare skill points from stealth which I can put into evasion.

I said less than 10. Even 160 quality black cloth will give you 45 stealth, meaning that you get another 9 with Clothier. And you can't expect to find even one of those. What you can reasonable expect is ~130  quality in the end game unless you make a lot of merchant runs or get really lucky in the final area. Balaclava and tabi scale their bonus a lot slower than armor, so you can reasonably expect around 15 points of stealth form Clothier if you wear all 3 of them, meaning that you won't wear goggles that can let you detect enemies MUCH faster or siphoner tabi that'll give you much better evasion and dodge. I don't think 15 skill points worth a feat slot, especially since those 15 points come with some restrictions.

[Fenix]

Btw, what difficulty you are playing at?

Hard?

And unlike your, he doesn't need to take cover.

And I don't need it too. I just kill them.

So, no, it's not great by any stretch of imagination.

Mobility that is enough for me.

So, that means you don't have movement points in the first round at all, meaning having less mobility than armored build and that you are a sitting duck for a whole round.

That mean I don't need that much mobility, and that first round happen after I bashed one and stun another.

Numbers say otherwise. Damage from balor hammer usually around 2 times more than tichrome hammer, meaning that even with 5% accuracy hit, you get much higher dpr and kill  your opponents much quicker.

That just mean that miss will descrease my dps even more than before.

Yeah, and by increasing your ability to detect them, you decreased your ability to hide from them (stealth depends on AGI), so you basically gained nothing in that area.

Wrong. I played many stealthed builds, crossbower has 10 Agi and I noticed that my stealth is not enough anyway, and higher detection is more important.

And if you don't like reloading, then 3 CON and 4 AGI build without good armor is really not the best choice for you.

Not that bad if I'm not reloading much.

Even 10 points is good enouh, also you forgot balaclava and ninja tabi, these bonus points gives spare skill points from stealth which I can put into evasion.

I said less than 10. Even 160 quality black cloth will give you 45 stealth, meaning that you get another 9 with Clothier. And you can't expect to find even one of those. What you can reasonable expect is ~130  quality in the end game unless you make a lot of merchant runs or get really lucky in the final area. Balaclava and tabi scale their bonus a lot slower than armor, so you can reasonably expect around 15 points of stealth form Clothier if you wear all 3 of them, meaning that you won't wear goggles that can let you detect enemies MUCH faster or siphoner tabi that'll give you much better evasion and dodge. I don't think 15 skill points worth a feat slot, especially since those 15 points come with some restrictions.

Even 15 points is good enough for me, especially when I don't have other useful feats.

[Fenix]

Yep, with Deflection I already hae 180 dodge with siphoner tabi boots, not infused.

[destroyor]

Fenix stated he will reply on stealth. When you attack from stealth you have 0 MP, how are you going to next target without Sprint/Hit and Run?

[Fenix]

Well, I have Adrenalin Shot, and often enemies grouped together - at least for now.
And char can survive 1 turn for sure if he won't be incapacitated or stunned.

[MirddinEmris]

Ok, whatever, it's your build. But, just that thing...

That just mean that miss will descrease my dps even more than before.

Do...do you even know how math works?

Wrong. I playe many stealthed builds, crossbower has 10 Agi andI noticed that my atealth is not anough anyway, and higher detection is more important.

Erm, unless your crossbow build had PER less than 7, then this build will be even worse at this. I mean you've got both PER and AGI that is less than that of a crossbow guy with 10 AGI.

to destroyor:

Fenix stated he will reply on stealth. When you attack from stealth you have 0 MP, how are you going to next target without Sprint/Hit and Run?

He is just using his AP for that. Deducing from his reply he has time for 1 taser attack and one regular attack between two enemies.

to epeli:

I may ruin the nice atmosphere here, but I believe destroyor and MirddinEmris overestimate the importance of agility and those feats.

Well, i don't, honestly. It's just his arguments are contradictory to what he is doing and i'm trying to make sense of this. If he said "well, that's how i like it" i would say "well, ok, it's you char". But when he is saying "this makes me better at this" when it objectively doesn't...idk, it just seems weird to me.

I thought it's pretty cool and original to see a sneaky low con hammer build with max perception.

7 PER is not max)

Hit and Run honestly won't get you anywhere

Actually, while it can't be used to retreat, it can be used to move between enemies after killing them, and often it actually can be used to position yourself more favorably at the end of the turn. It is especially useful if you start your combat form stealth.

[Fenix]

Do...do you even know how math works?

Yes. I hit 200 instead of 100 with Balor Hammer, thus when I miss I lose more.

Erm, unless your crossbow build had PER less than 7, then this build will be even worse at this. I mean you've got both PER and AGI that is less than that of a crossbow guy with 10 AGI.

10 Per 10 Agi - and detection is more important than stealth.

He is just using his AP for that. Deducing from his reply he has time for 1 taser attack and one regular attack between two enemies.

50 AP - 3 hammer bashes or 2 bashes and taser and moving, 70 AP - more bashing and taser stun.

It's just his arguments are contradictory to what he is doing and i'm trying to make sense of this.

It's just you don't know game well enough, so sense won't coming.

7 PER is not max)

With Snooping it is maxed for secrets, and with Paranoia it is even better than 10 Per without it for stealth vs stealth.

Actually, while it can't be used to retreat, it can be used to move between enemies after killing them, and often it actually can be used to position yourself more favorably at the end of the turn. It is especially useful if you start your combat form stealth.

It is not a mandatory.

[MirddinEmris]

Yes. I hit 200 instead of 100 with Balor Hammer, thus when I miss I lose more.

I...see. Well, i guess that's where i end it. Not with a bang, but with a snicker.