Author Topic: Need advice: Spellsword Build  (Read 11572 times)

Smecsy

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Need advice: Spellsword Build
« on: August 08, 2019, 06:49:41 am »
Hello,

I am trying to build a tanky spellsword build for hard difficulty. I have experience playing a melee and ranged character, but little with building psi characters.

Build URL (draft): https://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgYHAwoDDAUAMgDCoAAAAGRQAABpZBQoaQDCoMKgPDIAWl9jKz_CmcKOwqrCqxbCh8KEwowGwo1L378

Here's a quick breakdown of what I want to achieve:

1. Utilise sword and shield defensive feats
- Parry
- Riposte
- Boarding Up

2. Rely on Psi spells (more specifically, "aura abilities") to deal damage and boost defenses
- Exothermic Aura
- Cryo Shield

3. Above-average survivability
- Stoicism
- Thick Skull
- Parry
- Boarding Up

4. Have enough DPS for end game
- Getting flurry, cheap shots, onslaught, critical power later on

Current weaknesses of the build are:

1. Low agility (hence, no Sprint)
- I plan to compensate with striders + temporal manipulation movement / action points buff

2. Below average sword DPS
- My plan is to only use the sword during ripostes (0 AP attack) and rely on Psi abilities for dealing damage
- Ripostes will also be key in activating my Boarding Up buff

I need help with:

1. Feat choice
- Perhaps you could think of feats that can provide more value (especially on the Psi aspect of the build)

2. Optimised skill point distribution

Thanks for your time!

HulkOSaurus

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 09:49:29 am »
From the top of my head:

You can drop Hacking, Lockpicking, Persuation and 20 or so points from Mercantile to max out Thought Control, Throwing and a bit more into crafting. If you're not taking Quick Tinkering or Escape Artist you don't need 7 Dex. You can do 6 Dex as is and put that one point into Int. You could drop 1 point from Will and put that into Int. It will help with crafting some of the nades early on, as well as good armours/weapons throughout the playthrough. You could drop another point from Will and put that into Str.

Tranquility and Hemopsychosis won't do you much good. Take Locus of Control, Premediation(with your increased Int) and Force User. You could possibly look into Expose Weakness, as well. For the first two feats you can do Conditioning and Fast Metabolism. I don't know how good Critical Power will be. You could take another +2 Str instead. 

Something like this:

https://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgcGAwoDCgcAaQDCoAAAAAAAAABpZDcoacKgwqDCoDcAAEtfYyvCmcKqwqsWwofCjAbCjQhQKhTCtiHfvw

You will have more ranged potential with grenades and Thought Control/Locus of Control. Snipers and crossbowman will make your life hard but will be able to adapt a bit better.

As a general Melee User you probably do want Escape Artist, but for that you will need to lower the Psi disciplines a bit as well as Str. It's only a bit, but the skill is worth it.

You will want a decent Psi Riot Gear early on and a Headband with Mufflers to reduce the overall cost of Psi by quite a bit. A good Shield Emitter will be available with the crafting benches, but you will have to mind enemies with EMP grenades. It will make you quite tanky, though.

Do invest in Chemistry early on to be able to make Magnesium and Mark III grenades. It will help a ton. Especially with a melee character. Your ranged Psi does help, as well, but you will need something to break the bulk of the enemies.   

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2019, 07:02:39 pm »
It sounds like what you really want is a psi build that also happens to have some melee ability.  You should probably know that, for example, Cryo Shield and Exothermic Aura can't coexist; whichever one you cast second will automatically cancel the first one, because heat and cold abilities don't play well together.

Expedition brings two really good psi weapons into the game, but they're both spears, so you might want to consider being slightly less tanky, and slightly higher strength, so you can go spear&shield.

Since you're going to be closing to melee range regularly, you don't want Tranquility - you want Psychosis so you can hit hard and fast while closing in.  And since you want your psi abilities to be your main source of damage, you *need* Locus of Control.  However, unlike Hulk above, I'd never suggest someone max out Thought Control; that's a huge waste of points for nearly no effective gain. 

I'm assuming you'll be wearing a Muffled Uni-Psi Headband, and carrying the psi spear in one hand and a melee spear in the other, to switch between, since you'll have two main modes of damage output.  If you really don't mind moving like a turtle, you could swap out Impale for Juggernaut and wear Riot Gear with a Psi Crab carapace(instead of, presumably, Psi Beetle), which would give you just enormous defensive boosts.

SInce you'll have psi as your principle damage source, you're going to be able to get by with skipping a lot of things that normal melee-focused builds can't do without; some Dodge, some Evasion, maybe Uncanny Dodge and Escape Artist.  You can do without any of those things because psi is going to give you alternate paths to those sorts of defenses.

So here's my suggestion for you: https://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgsDAwcDDAcAHgDCoAAAAFVaAABBWigyUEvCoMKgSzcAQVAoKywUKmUuwpQhwodpEsKvwqvCsmJ6378

This build will let you run around with ~20% dodge/evasion from your sustained TM ability; it'll let you alpha strike with huge Psionic Mania hits (and if you're using Pyrokinesis or ThermoD, which you should probably be, Pyromania will give you huge bonus damage DoTs and fears on living targets) and then quickly stack defenses with Thought Control mirror images, LoC+Enrage group attacks, you can debuff ranged enemies to near uselessness.  The bonus telekinetic damage will make your TK punches really very painful (especially if you've gone ahead and made your psi headband with the TK Punch module) so you'll have a brutal single-target damage option.  And, because you're going spears rather than swords, you're going to be able to equip the best psi weapon in the game.

You may want not to worry about using spears in the early part of the game; start your character with 10 Will, put your level 4 and level 8 stat points into Will, and play your first 16 levels as pure psi, but with a melee weapon of some sort equipped.  If you do want to use spears early on, you probably should go with metal armor over riot gear, or else take Iron Grip rather earlier - but since melee is only a support damage source, I built the character to be pure psi early on then branch into melee  around level 20 or so.  If you're playing Classic XP, that'll be no trouble, but if you're playing Oddity it may mean that you'd need to explore a lot and pick up all the easy levels in UnderRail before going on the expedition to Black Sea.

 I think, for a mostly-psi build that also wants to be a tanky melee type, this should be DOMINATING viable.

EDIT: I should add that this build does assume you'll be cooking your own Hypercerebrix so you can make MKIV grenades, hit all the necessary Mercantile thresholds as well as - if you wish - the 130 Hacking check in DC, and still craft top-tier Riot Gear and Energy Shields.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 07:12:32 pm by TheAverageGortsby »

Doxy

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2019, 07:39:42 pm »
Spellswords don't use shields! That's heresy:))

Smecsy

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2019, 10:51:57 pm »
Thanks for all the advice so far HulkOSaurus and TheAverageGortsby - both posts were very detailed and helpful. I see Hulk's build as more melee-focused and TheAverageGortsby's build as more psi-oriented.

I did a test character on Hard using my initial build. I was really happy with the constant Fear debuff I was able to apply to the early-game critters (rathounds) using basic Metathermic spells, so I thought about integrating the Pyromania feat for my revised build. Happy to see that TheAverageGortsby's build has that feat included.

Some observations:

1. I unknowingly went with Hulk's suggestion of going for Quick Tinkering, given how much I relied on this feat on my previous melee and ranged characters. However, because of the added 25 AP cost to Quick Tinkering, I find it difficult to integrate this ability with my usual "ability" loop. I see myself run out of AP too quickly because of all the options I now have as a Psi user.

2. I also find myself regularly running out of steam mid-fight (0 Psi points), but I guess this is just part of being a low-level Psi user.

3. I also took Tranquility for my test character. I found myself hiding out in corners a lot more so I can take advantage of the AP reduction and spam more spells during the first few turns. However, I have a feeling this tactic would quickly lose its value as I progress through the game and encounter more ranged enemies. This "hide and peek" tactic also goes against my agressive "tanky spellcaster warrior" vision for the character, but I guess it's better to play smart than look cool.

Some things I want to test:

1. I want to find out how much value I would be able to get from the Parry / Riposte / Boarding Up feat combination. I still need a few more levels to get these feats.

Some follow-up questions:

1. Is Meditation useful (+25 max Psi points, requires Tranquility)? I thought about getting this feat given my "running out of steam" predicament. However, if I do invest in feats that increase my Psi damage instead as suggested by both, I would theoretically need to use less spells to finish fights.

2. What does "alpha strike" mean? When I first encountered this term, I thought it was a feat of some kind. However, I assume this means being able to finish off all / majority of the enemies in one turn?

3. @TheAverageGortsby: By "ThermoD", do you mean Thermodynamicity? If so, at which level would you recommend getting this feat based on the build you linked?

4. I am a bit wary of the Lunatic Mall mission during the Tchort faction questline. I had a bit of trouble going through this quest on my previous characters but managed to scrape by (mainly through stealth). What are your opinions on a non-stealth Psi character going through this quest?

P.S.
@Doxy: It might be heresy, but I had no idea there were Psi-oriented uniques for spears. Given this, I guess going for spears would work better for the "spell-warrior" archetype.

I still think a spellsword in Underrail would look cooler than a "spellspear". Oh well.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 11:20:03 pm by Smecsy »

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2019, 12:36:48 am »
2. I also find myself regularly running out of steam mid-fight (0 Psi points), but I guess this is just part of being a low-level Psi user.
Some follow-up questions:

1. Is Meditation useful (+25 max Psi points, requires Tranquility)?

2. What does "alpha strike" mean? When I first encountered this term, I thought it was a feat of some kind. However, I assume this means being able to finish off all / majority of the enemies in one turn?

3. @TheAverageGortsby: By "ThermoD", do you mean Thermodynamicity? If so, at which level would you recommend getting this feat based on the build you linked?

4. I am a bit wary of the Lunatic Mall mission during the Tchort faction questline. I had a bit of trouble going through this quest on my previous characters but managed to scrape by (mainly through stealth). What are your opinions on a non-stealth Psi character going through this quest?
You run out of psi because you don't use psi efficiently.  It's really not anything to do with your level, but rather your use of abilities.  For example, Cryokinesis at low levels should be your default spammable attack because it provides good damage, splits it between two types so mostly most enemies (obvious exception: robots) will take at least about half damage, and has a fairly low cost.  You do also need to expect that you're going to be drinking psi boosters like a dehydrated man in a Capri Sun factory; there's a reason I call 'em juice pouches ;)

1)It is useful, but it is not necessary. Efficient use of psi abilities, and stacking of psi cost reduction (psi beetle carapace armor early on, muffled psi headband, Advanced Psi Empathy perhaps or at least the psi spear, psi beetle brain soup - you can easily get your psi costs down very low by stacking psi cost reduction) will be far more valuable. Until then, just make sure you pick up every mindshroom you see, and drink those juice pouches as you need 'em

2)An alpha strike is your opening attack turn, assuming you pop all your necessary cooldowns and do as much as you possible can, going "all out".  Typically for psi, you probably Premeditate an ability then follow it up with one or two others.  For example, a classic Psychosis alpha strike might be Premeditation+Psionic Mania+Cryokinetic Orb, then followed by a Pyrokinesis - the Orb will be a guaranteed crit, do tremendous damage, and perhaps inflict a bleeding debuff on enemies; then the pyrokinesis will do additional heavy damage - and with Pyromaniac, might also set any surviving enemies on fire.  On Hard, you rarely have to worry about enemies surviving an iceball+fireball combo, though.

3)Thermodynamic Destabilization. It turns a target into a walking bomb - when they die, they explode for potentially enormous damage. ThermoD is one of the most grotesquely abuseable psi abilities; it ranks up there with LoC+Enrage or a TK Proxy + Implode+TK Punch.

4) Psi runs roughshod over the Mall. Without spoiling the plan of attack for you, I'll say that you *may* die a few times getting through it if you somehow haven't learned the best use of psi, but with a psi character, you absolutely have what you need to walk in, mushroom stamp every last Lunatic in the place, yoink the loot, and bounce out singing "The Roof Is On Fire"

HulkOSaurus

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2019, 08:27:07 am »
...

I actually didn't suggest you go for Quick Tinkering. The feat, however, can have some good usability for more of a jack-of-all build that this initially was set up for(at least in my opinion). It will be more difficult to play but mostly because the solution to a combat encounter isn't as direct, or as obvious as with a more streamlined build.

Ultimately, Gortsby's way is more potent at range and more direct(I am talking about the use of Psi, though), and probably will be easier to play, so maybe you should go with a more Psi-heavy stuff. Although, I still maintain that the points from Hacking/Security are better spent on Throwing and Crafting.

If you're going Dominating you will need a lot of boosters. Although, being a crafty Psi character you can finish the Lunatic Mall at level 14 and just loot the majority of the Psi boosters you will ever need.

However, unlike Hulk above, I'd never suggest someone max out Thought Control; that's a huge waste of points for nearly no effective gain. 

I'm assuming you'll be wearing a Muffled Uni-Psi Headband, and carrying the psi spear in one hand and a melee spear in the other, to switch between, since you'll have two main modes of damage output.  If you really don't mind moving like a turtle, you could swap out Impale for Juggernaut and wear Riot Gear with a Psi Crab carapace(instead of, presumably, Psi Beetle), which would give you just enormous defensive boosts.

Yes, thanks for that. Keeping Thought Control maxed isn't optimal, it's true. Although I must say that in your version the points tend to be on the lower end. I know you're taking into consideration a Uni Psi Headband and Psi Riot Gear, but after playing on Dominating I think 240/250 effective Thought Control is safer. But just my two cents here.

Just mentioning that a Riot Gear with Psi beetle Carapace does trigger Juggernaut, as well, so there's a bit more versatility there.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2019, 05:22:28 pm »
after playing on Dominating I think 240/250 effective Thought Control is safer. But just my two cents here.

Just mentioning that a Riot Gear with Psi beetle Carapace does trigger Juggernaut, as well, so there's a bit more versatility there.
I think you're probably right. 200 effective does occasionally (thankfully rarely) fail resolve checks on DOMINATING.

I had no idea about the beetle riot armor. I thought it was under 50%. Thanks for the correction; that's going to be important for the OP build to give them more mobility.

HulkOSaurus

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2019, 07:43:02 pm »
I think you're probably right. 200 effective does occasionally (thankfully rarely) fail resolve checks on DOMINATING.

I had no idea about the beetle riot armor. I thought it was under 50%. Thanks for the correction; that's going to be important for the OP build to give them more mobility.

It's more noticeable with single target cc. Mass Enrage will always be good, but sometimes you do need to do something about one target. It also gives another projection, so it's not too bad.

Initially it would need to be a Regenerative Psi Blast Overcoat as these are the heaviest components. Later it can become Supersteel Psi and it will be alright.

abu

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2019, 08:07:33 am »
It sounds like what you really want is a psi build that also happens to have some melee ability.  You should probably know that, for example, Cryo Shield and Exothermic Aura can't coexist; whichever one you cast second will automatically cancel the first one, because heat and cold abilities don't play well together.

Expedition brings two really good psi weapons into the game, but they're both spears, so you might want to consider being slightly less tanky, and slightly higher strength, so you can go spear&shield.

Since you're going to be closing to melee range regularly, you don't want Tranquility - you want Psychosis so you can hit hard and fast while closing in.  And since you want your psi abilities to be your main source of damage, you *need* Locus of Control.  However, unlike Hulk above, I'd never suggest someone max out Thought Control; that's a huge waste of points for nearly no effective gain. 

I'm assuming you'll be wearing a Muffled Uni-Psi Headband, and carrying the psi spear in one hand and a melee spear in the other, to switch between, since you'll have two main modes of damage output.  If you really don't mind moving like a turtle, you could swap out Impale for Juggernaut and wear Riot Gear with a Psi Crab carapace(instead of, presumably, Psi Beetle), which would give you just enormous defensive boosts.

SInce you'll have psi as your principle damage source, you're going to be able to get by with skipping a lot of things that normal melee-focused builds can't do without; some Dodge, some Evasion, maybe Uncanny Dodge and Escape Artist.  You can do without any of those things because psi is going to give you alternate paths to those sorts of defenses.

So here's my suggestion for you: https://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgsDAwcDDAcAHgDCoAAAAFVaAABBWigyUEvCoMKgSzcAQVAoKywUKmUuwpQhwodpEsKvwqvCsmJ6378

This build will let you run around with ~20% dodge/evasion from your sustained TM ability; it'll let you alpha strike with huge Psionic Mania hits (and if you're using Pyrokinesis or ThermoD, which you should probably be, Pyromania will give you huge bonus damage DoTs and fears on living targets) and then quickly stack defenses with Thought Control mirror images, LoC+Enrage group attacks, you can debuff ranged enemies to near uselessness.  The bonus telekinetic damage will make your TK punches really very painful (especially if you've gone ahead and made your psi headband with the TK Punch module) so you'll have a brutal single-target damage option.  And, because you're going spears rather than swords, you're going to be able to equip the best psi weapon in the game.

You may want not to worry about using spears in the early part of the game; start your character with 10 Will, put your level 4 and level 8 stat points into Will, and play your first 16 levels as pure psi, but with a melee weapon of some sort equipped.  If you do want to use spears early on, you probably should go with metal armor over riot gear, or else take Iron Grip rather earlier - but since melee is only a support damage source, I built the character to be pure psi early on then branch into melee  around level 20 or so.  If you're playing Classic XP, that'll be no trouble, but if you're playing Oddity it may mean that you'd need to explore a lot and pick up all the easy levels in UnderRail before going on the expedition to Black Sea.

 I think, for a mostly-psi build that also wants to be a tanky melee type, this should be DOMINATING viable.

EDIT: I should add that this build does assume you'll be cooking your own Hypercerebrix so you can make MKIV grenades, hit all the necessary Mercantile thresholds as well as - if you wish - the 130 Hacking check in DC, and still craft top-tier Riot Gear and Energy Shields.

Thank you for share

I will reroll again on hard mod and will  try your build :)  It seems like double fun. I love hybrid builds. Only think that I need lvl up guide for skill points

abu

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2020, 04:33:37 pm »
I was using this link as  lvl up guide.    https://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgsDAwcDDAcAHgDCoAAAAFVaAABBWigyUEvCoMKgSzcAQVAoKywUKmUuwpQhwodpEsKvwqvCsmJ6378         

I dont now the reason but right now iam  getting  security message by browser.  I cant see  the build anymore .   ^^  Can anyone help me  ?    A screenshot might be helpful thanks
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 04:35:10 pm by abu »

gastovski

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2020, 07:30:13 pm »
hi, i think build website is down.

edit: removed .tm, problem solved.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 07:38:59 pm by gastovski »

abu

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Re: Need advice: Spellsword Build
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 12:42:48 pm »
I found a way.  When you erase     .tm  from link   It's working