Dev Log #27: Version 0.1.10.0 released

[LazyMonk]

Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting.

Yes it is, i agree.

If you are forced not to loot or loot less anyway then it detracts from the looting part of the game...

Now, that's your conclusion that's based on your personal preferences.
The lack of inventory restrictions made my looting experience less relevant, less meaningful, with no room for any other choice other than hitting the take all button.

It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though.

You are the voice of does who have none? Are those people the majority? Are they fans of the oldschool rpgs?

I also fear for the success of the game once it's fully release to try and go forward with this because quite frankly, I can't see that many people enjoying this looting system...

I doubt having a limited inventory is going to harm the game financially since its present in almost all rpgs. The fact of vendors not buying every item you have is still work in progress, but it has been welcomed from many posters here at the forums. I am sure people on steam forums may dislike most of these changes but i would never use their community feedback, specially about old school hardcore rpgs. They are complaining about Blackguards difficulty and that how awful it is to read the manual before you play.

I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits...

I wouldn't really mind this, if it meant you could enjoy the game again. I mean i cant believe what fun you can have when the economy breaks when you hit the Junkyard, but i wouldn't object of you having that choice.

I love to play Il2-1946, and i play it with realism to the max.
But people still have the choice to play with huds and third person views.
This doesn't hurt the game (only the multiplayer to people like myself ) because it was made
towards a realistic approach even if it allowed a more arcadish gameplay.
I am sure these it would be the same with Underrail because it isn't being built around a limitless inventory system. Hell, even the old Rainbow Six had the option for auto aim...

[Barrelsoup Chef]

But starting it's a huge money sink! The disadvantage of the starting Psi to any other combat oriented build is huge in terms of investment... It's even fair to say that going forward it can be bigger than anything else because even if you use Psi you will still use other weapons which means still invest in ammo and new weapons as upgraded versions become available. Now obviously you don't invest much into repairs except armor wise perhaps and spend much less in ammunition, but still, you spend a lot more into psi boosters because let's be honest, 3 sniper rounds are a lot cheaper than a psi booster.

I understand your opinion in this and yes I read your posts too, I find them very interesting to read. Just giving my opinion in all of this.

It is true that it is a bit more expensive but still you make it sound like a really big problem and in my experience that isn't the case. People tend to stack there money early on, instead of that I am "wasting" it on psi. It maby seems like a bad idea but you will earn it back midgame anyway (around Junkyard), enough money to go around (the economy has better exchange rates now). Also with all the crits and stuff I can do far more damage with 1 psibooster then I can with 3 sniperbullets. Yes a sniper can crit too but I can only fire 1 shot at the time, for instance natural overload can be casted 2 times in 1 turn.

As for the argument that I still need to buy weapons: instead of buying/crafting 2 or 3 big guns I only craft 1 pistol. That balances out the psi money. It still is a bit more expensive but it really is worth the money and most important, its affordable. Don't forget you can craft psiboosters too!

[Ivan Bajlo]

Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting.

Actually that is the only reason I play most of the games. I mean what is the point of heaving real world limitations (can't steal everything, can't shoot everyone) in a video game? I might as well turn off the PC and go outside! 

It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though.

I'm betting captcha is preventing many from registering it is really hard if you have eyesight problems.

I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits... The last one not being a major gripe but it would be nice just as well. At the end of the days these are just gymics that waste time rather than serve the purpose they intend.

Maybe we need some kind of compromise, based on my previous idea of taking over a existing merchant business: http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=750.msg4059#msg4059 , maybe some kind of pawn shop in which you can leave any of your stuff on the shelves and either take very small amount of money immediately or return on regular basis and random item would get sold and player gets a bit more money (but still lower then with real merchant). That way we have a place to dump all our loot and not waste time running from merchant to merchant.

[Elhazzared]

Lazymonk - What inventory restrictions? You have a carry limit? Make multiple trips. You have a merchant that only buys a limited amount of suplies per reset, wait until you can sell everything... You only create downtime and frustation here you are not limiting anything in any real way. Want to limit loot? Limit the drops because there is no way around that, if there is a way around, at best you just create time waste.

One thing is to complain about a game being difficult or needing to read a manual (Although I find reading a manual in these day and ages something wrong. Games should have a tutorial to deal with that instead of making people waste time reading a lot of stuff because a tutorai lexplains all and much more quickly, not to mention in a way that doesn't leaves room for confusion), another thing is to complain that the game has a huge downtime that does not ends up serving the purpose for which it was created which leads to frustation. These are my point but we do agree, so long as there is at least the option to remove the waste of time everyone can enjoy the game in the way that pleases them better.

Banggunner - Crit a sniper shot? just use aimed shot feat. You also have the sniper feat which although it makes no crit, damages are even higher than crits, either way both skills lead to one shot kill on anything! likewise, a mk5 grenade nearly oneshots anything except the very toughest opponents which are left on a sliver of health with a bad roll... I've never seen an overload deal enough damage to kill, even on a crit and I tend to do full psion builds... Only the flamethrower stands a better chance at one shooting stuff and even then it usually doesn't if it's a somewhat tough opponent, even humans can survive it... I still feel that every other build has a much better bang for the money at the time due to he cost of psi boosters and there not being a way to recover at least some psi for free between fights. You do are right that we can craft psi boosters but how many will you craft? It's not like mindshrooms pop up in large quantities in every map, not to mention that no one sells them.

My personal experience with Psi and a guns/grenade build is that Psi ran more money before but I had shroomhead to recover me 40% of the psi prior to every battle. After a while I sued a few boosters when I knew a fight was gonna be more psi intensive and needed more psi than just 40%. Now I am absolutly sure that with no passive psi recover it's much more expensive to run a psi user than a gun freak... As for whether or not it makes difference up ahead... All I can say is this. When I left for the junkyard I felt like I had a ton of money, when I got there I was like... ok, things are stupidly expensive so I don't have money to even aford anything. When I finished the junkyard I felt like I had a ton of money (My psi user had about 1/3 more money at the time but again, shroomhead was usefull back then) the thing is. I'm sure that's how economy is balanced, when you go into the next town, your money is going to not be as much as you think. Even if things don't go as high, forget thinking you're stinking rich, you'll maybe buy a gun and that's it, you're broke again. At least that is how I feel it will be going forward taking the previous examples.

Ivan Baijo - While the pawn shop might look like a good idea, it doesn't solves anything does it? You are still wasting a load of time to sell your items or you sell it at a very low value which just means a huge money loss anyway. The idea is to remove the time waste of the game. To keep you going from mission to side mission and from side mission to exploration without having to... Let's go make a round through all the merchants, try to sell everything and if I can't, wait 90 minutes for a shop refresh, until all is sold or at least the vast majority and you don't feel like caring about only a couple items left.

Edit: Another thing I cmpletly forgot was that this system even makes crafting a lot more useless. Now sure, you can craft stuff to use which is still great. But when you have materials that you don't need what do you do? You craft stuff to sell cause it earns you a few extra bucks, it was one of the greatest advantages of crafting. Now it's kinda nullified because either the item may not be on demand, or it may just not be on high enough demand that you can sell as much as you can craft... Again, just wait loads of time or just don't make the items, lose more money (which again puts crafting in a worse spot).

[Elhazzared]

I belive it should be an option from the game. at very least it acknowledges it as being a serious problem to many players and makes sure to at least ensure that they enjoy the game without the need to relly on anyone to make the game good for them.

Also you first say that the gymics serve their purpose by limiting the player to what he can do and then later on in respose to another comment I make you say they restrict but don't limit after all... I do belive you realise that in reality they just don't limit at all. They make you waste more time and that's it. Some people will just not care for it and leave stuff behind or recicle some stuff. This isn't the game limiting them, they are limiting themselfs so that they can enjoy the game. To some people having to limit themself in order to enjoy the game means that they are not enjoying themselves at all. Let me tell you how I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd think exactly the same way) would do if I was to play this game... Start the game, do a quest, loot everything, maybe pause in between if I need to go and sell stuff cause my carry limit was hit. I get to the base/town and sell a few things... Well I can't sell more but I need to sell all of this junk so I let the game running in the background for a hour and a half, then I go back to it and sell more stuff. I do thise several times probably to the point that I spend a whole day doing part of a quest and the rest is just selling. Now tell me how much fun this is and how immersive the gameplay will be for me and like me, many others. At the end of the day, this has not served the purpose of making me skip the less valuable items, it has only wasted a lot of my time and will eventually (sooner than later) make me stop playing altogether... So yes, it's is a gymic that does not serve it's purpose.

[Elhazzared]

Now this is only my own opinion. But smart looting is looting all, if you sell all you gain more and quite frankly you may say don't bother with the worthless stuff and yet you forget that the so called worthless stuff is worth at very least 1/3 of your total possible income. just the small experience I've done I had 4 hearths, 6 livers and 2 leather pieces just to name the best of the so called worthless stuf. That is worth a ton of money and this maintains throughout the game. breaking stuff or leaving it behind is a huge loss, it's not smart at all in my opinion.

Even if I kept stuff near a trader and went off to continue. It'sd come back, with any luck I'd sell half a dozen items and then would have another 20 more on top of what I already have. It doesn't solves the problem.

And yeah, I don't doubt traders could run out of money, I've managed that in the previous patch so it wouldn't surprise me if they did now. The problem starts with the money being handle in (again my opinion) the wrong way. they should not have an inventory slot and even if they must absolutly have one, it shouldn't be limited to normal stacks. Similarly, merchants should just have an unlimited amount of cash!

And I know you want to try to make me see the good points. I've said it before, this patch has a lot of good stuff, but it brought a lot of bad stuff too, the problem for me is that th bad far outweights the good in the game at this point in time I really cannot even play it, I'd go insane and I tried giving it a go just to be fair and see how bad it was and it was just as bad as I expected (again this is my opinion), it completly ruins any fun i might have with the game... It could even be true that right now, even if i just picked half a dozen items per quest and still made more money than before and everything is cheaper, I just couldn't do it, it completly wrecks all the fun in the game and it's so incredibly frustating that I cannot even put it into words.

[Elhazzared]

No, I don't mean more useful, I mean more useless because crafting lost even more use than it had before and the problem it had before was that you could hardly use crafting to stay ahead of the curve, it was always better to just buy items because they were better and by the time you could craft better, welcome the new area with much better items than you can craft... Now crafting can't even be ued as a means to make money.

Let's take your example here. No one is buying, extra chemicals... And why would I have the skills for that when it's a waste to go into crafting? Crafting meds I'll only go as far as the minimum needed skills for psi boosters and that is if i find it I really need that badly.
You leather example is, let's waste a ton of leather and armor and make some repair kits. First you are wasting lots of money into making repair kits, completly inneficient (not to mention waste skill points into a crafting system that isn't exactly good) and then there is a limit of how many they buy while I'll be accumlating those like crazy for really no purpose.

If you think the item system is fun like this... well that is you I guess. I like the possible interactions, but I don't like that the game tries to force you waste money for no good reason.

I don't think it'sfun to skip any possible money unless you are doing it for RP reasons. As in I won't help this guy cause I don't like him. Skipping money just because I already have a decent amount is not smart and while you say it is because you still have more than enough money, you are only saving yourself the bother it takes to get the extra money, I say the problem is not the bother that you have to go to get the extra money but rather the game mechanics itself which are not good.

[LazyMonk]

How is crafting useless? I find it to be so awesome.

First crafting is much cheaper than buying from a vendor.
Getting a metal armor before hitting the GMS compound can be quite expensive, but you can do it for much less if you just buy or scavenge
each component.

Second, stuff made by the player has the potential to be much better than the stuff you find in stores. It does depend on your luck though.

Third, variety. Most of the time a vendor doesn't have what you exactly seek.
I want a metal armor, but with a penalty no higher than 65% and all these are above 70%.
I want a hurricane crossbow, but there are none with a scope for sale.
I want a leather armor with resistance to acid, yada yada yada...


Forth, crafting is now more useful because we have a weight limit. Why? Well because i can recycle heavy items and turn them on repair kits.
Repair kits are lighter so you can still clean the place, and you save money you would otherwise spend on buying kits.
Its a waste? Its hardly a waste transforming items you wouldn't carry or that no one would be willing to buy.
If no one is willing to buy a piece of leather armor, that it is worth ZERO. Repair kits on the other hand are not.

Fifth, the so called crafting skills are not just for crafting. With the mechanics skill you can fix the elevator at the GMS compind.
I don't know of any others but its quite possible that Styg wishes to add more skill checks based on Technological skills.

[Elhazzared]

Crafting is cheaper? Yes, especially useful for grenades really. Crafting metal armor before the gms compound? I dunno, I've never seen it being possible because the materials are never readly available and usually when they are, they are WAY over your crafting skill. If you are EXTREMELY lucky then yes, it might be nice to have a very underpowered metal armor to do the GMS cause it's still a metal armor compared to what you'd have otherwise. But again you will still spend quite a lot and need to be lucky beyond reasoning.

Second. It isn't quite like that. By the time you leave the home base you will be able to craft better stuff than what is there, but not better stuff than is on the junkyard. When you leave the junkyard you can craft better stuff than there is on the junkyard but not better than wherever you're going next.

Third. Variety is not a factor when we are thinking that to craft something that has that special bonus like a scope on a crossbow, you are losing 1/3 of damage in comparison to what is available on the new town. This not to say that vendors while not always having what you are looking for in exact match, sometimes they do. It's better to do without but not lose damage or total armor and when it becomes available, trade for the good version.

Forth, yes it's a waste because of the merchants! Yes you recicle items to turn them into repair kits, soon you'll be carrying god knows how many of them without a use for so much repair kit and the amount you might be able to sell to a merchant is minimal... This not to mention that it would be worth more money to simply sell the heavy item.
The money you'd spend on kits would be minimal, you need at best to have 2 or 3 kits of each type just in case you find an item better than what you're using. If you need a kit to repair something to sell, you can do that when you get to the store and you only do that if it's worth doing that.
It is a waste to use resources to make items so that you then recicle those items for scraps to make kits. The waste is just beyond words. Before one of the big things was. crafting can be used to make money, all those leather pieces and stuff. just make armors and sell them. Now you've got the crafting for sale system completly ruined, you cannot refute this and in this, crafting lost more value.
If no one is willing to buy a piece of leather armor then it's not that the piece of armor is worth 0. It's a game design flaw. On the other hand if you have 100 repair kits, do tell me what the heck do you need so many for. And don't forget, the numbers just keep on growing because you'll always get more than you will spend and sell.

Fifth, I actually never knew that the GMS elevator could be repaired, but then again what is the point? I can get down there anyway. I also have a feeling that you can get mostly everywhere without crafting skills. Maybe at game completation there will be a few optional areas that need a certain amount of skill in this or that to get there, but you know what? It will not make much of a difference, just some area with a bit of loot you were forced to skip for not having the skills. I'm pretty sure that similarly there will be areas that you need Psi to go, or certain skills or atributes. That is to say no character will ever be able to get in all areas!

[Barrelsoup Chef]

Underrail is really encouraging (in my experience!) a free playstyle. Like said before merchants will run out of money anyway so you will be rich anyhow (before and after this patch), looting anything may be useful but it actually doesn't mean much unless you are spending money like crazy instead of making objectives for yourself what major item you wanna buy next. Ever played Diablo 1? You can't loot all loot in that game too and the market prizes are crazy, but I found that really appealing. The game makes exploring and advancing more rewarding then trying and do complete all of the less rewarding things like collecting and hoarding useless stuff. Same thing applies to the Fallout series, lot of stuff to find but you can't loot all. It gives the game a more adventures feel, instead of mindless grinding. Its called a RPG for a reason right?

As for crafting, focusing on something you wanna craft and only collecting those ingredients will assist you, using the crafting more in a assisting way. For example, if you are psi, at least collect all the shrooms or only collect electronics you know you are gonna need in the future. Most of that stuff is cheap anyway or like the hearts and hides and stuff that are "so valuable", can be found on respawning enemy's.

[LazyMonk]

Crafting is cheaper? Yes, especially useful for grenades really.

Useful? But i thought crafting was USELESS! Oh well thinking on absolutes.

Crafting metal armor before the gms compound? I dunno, I've never seen it being possible because the materials are never readly available and usually when they are, they are WAY over your crafting skill.

Are NEVER readily available? That's a very strange never. But i have been doing it every time now and they are not WAY OVER my crafting skill or i would not be able to do it, time over time. Again absolutes.

If you are EXTREMELY lucky

By my experience i would say i would be EXTREMELY UNLUCKY not to get all the components i need since i usually do on my playthroughs.

Second. It isn't quite like that. By the time you leave the home base you will be able to craft better stuff than what is there, but not better stuff than is on the junkyard. When you leave the junkyard you can craft better stuff than there is on the junkyard but not better than wherever you're going next.

It varies. Depends on your int value and what components do you manage to find.

Third. Variety is not a factor when we are thinking that to craft something that has that special bonus like a scope on a crossbow, you are losing 1/3 of damage in comparison to what is available on the new town. This not to say that vendors while not always having what you are looking for in exact match, sometimes they do. It's better to do without but not lose damage or total armor and when it becomes available, trade for the good version.

That's only true according to a very specific scenario that you made up. It has not been my experience. I find it very odd that you always have such negative data on crafting when my experience says other wise. Even Styg said he had a different experience.

Forth, yes it's a waste because of the merchants! Yes you recicle items to turn them into repair kits, soon you'll be carrying god knows how many of them without a use for so much repair kit and the amount you might be able to sell to a merchant is minimal... This not to mention that it would be worth more money to simply sell the heavy item.

You didnt understand. I will explain again. Imagine if you can only sell 6 guns to the local vendors, but you found 10. You can use four to become repair kits. Is this a waste? NO! Was either that or garbage because the vendors are NOT going to buy them.

It's a game design flaw. On the other hand if you have 100 repair kits, do tell me what the heck do you need so many for. And don't forget, the numbers just keep on growing because you'll always get more than you will spend and sell.

On the other hand if you have 100 repair kits, do tell me what the heck do you need so many for. And don't forget, the numbers just keep on growing because you'll always get more than you will spend and sell.

Ad absurdum. Why would you keep doing repair kits after you have more than enough to travel safely without having to go back. Oh right by the same reason we have to go back and forth to get and sell and the loot in game?

Fifth, I actually never knew that the GMS elevator could be repaired, but then again what is the point?

Here is the point. Instead of wasting psi, emp traps/grenades on those pesky bots, you can just sneak past them and you can completely avoid them in your way back. Is it much? Not really. Some people have become trapped on the third floor because as soon as they went one level up a couple of bots would be there to welcome you back. With the elevator thing? Problem solved.

[Elhazzared]

Grenades are one extreme. They are good things that you can hardly ever have enough enough if they are high level grenades so yeah it is useful for that purpose, it's one of the few real good uses. Crafting is still mostly useless in my experience although I'll admit most of it comes from the previous patch when the economy was in my opinion much better.

My experience tell me that all the necessary materials to craft anything that requires 2 or more components just won't all drop. When most of them drop at a much higher level than you are and what the merchants have usually is way higher level than what you can craft and by usually I mean at very least 3 or more levels away even on a high intelligence character. Again my experience comes from the previous patch.

And no, it doesn't varies on the quallity of the components I find. By the time I can craft something as good (tecnicly better because of possible upgrades such as scopes and whatnot but same damage levels) as what is on sale in that place, I've finished that place... Quite literally, by the time I had enough skill to make a gun as good as the ones on sale in the junkyard, I had already finished all the quests there. The problem wasn't finding the high quallity materials, the problem was having the skills to use them. So unless there was a serious tweek to the quallity required to make a certain item... Then it doesn't depends on what you can find or even your int score. this has always been my major problem with crafting. It should actually keep you ahead of the curve, not bellow just cause of minor upgrades.

And yes, this is only true accordingly to my specific scenario because I've given crafting a fair go and I've discovered the following. Doing health hyppos and psi boosters can be useful, but not really necessary. Making grenades is extremelly useful. Making traps is either bad or just not worth it. Everything else is just plain horrible. This played out during several tries, it wasn't a case of, I tried once, gave it up.

And yes it's a waste cause those guns would have been worth a lot of money, the merchant should just buy it. this is a game, some things must make a gammy sense, not a real world sense in order to make the game good.

Continuing from the previous point. You have many reapir kits why make more? Yes, less waste even more and just throw the guns away because no one will buy it and I don't want to be weighted down or have to go back and forth to sell them.

Here's my point (and take into consideration that it comes from someone who doesn't likes the oddity system and doesn't uses it). If I kill the bots I gain XP. If I search the whole area I will loot quite a bit of stuff. The only reason to fix the elevator, is so that you can just directly take it to the top floor from the 3 sub level and i find that not to be a good enough reason to invest skill points into it.

[LazyMonk]

Making traps is either bad or just not worth it.

Why? Why is that crafting grenades is so great and traps are so bad when they are quite similar? I had a character that used traps quite often and so crafting them was quite welcome. Not only i ended up with more traps than i would if i had only had bough them, as i also got traps that were much better than the ones for sale.

And yes it's a waste cause those guns would have been worth a lot of money, the merchant should just buy it.

The discussion of if it is or not a waste should be about Underrail in its current version and not the one that you would like to exist.

this is a game, some things must make a gammy sense, not a real world sense in order to make the game good.

But you don't get to say what should make "gammy sense" or "real world sense". Obviously this boils down to features you don't like. If you don't like them and they are also realistic or consistent with the game world, they should be replaced with a gammy approach.
What about ammo? Why should we have one type of ammo for each weapon? Why not just a universal ammo solution like the one found in Deus Ex 2? Would that make the game better?
Why should we have ammo at all? The player will just keep getting no matter what so the risk of running out of ammo is almost null, and having to look for a store that has the specific ammo you want is just annoying right?
We should have unlimited ammo like in Shadow Run. That would make the game better?
Since we are at it we should remove reloading. Reloading always comes at unfortunate times, and breaks the pace of the combat. Removing would make the game much better?

All these gamey features i mentioned are not inherently bad. They make sense on certain games.
They don't make as much sense on Underrail. Because they don't help portray a post apocalyptic environment.
There are different games for different people, and different people have fun with different games.
There seem to be plenty of things you dislike about Underrail, but these things also seem to have appeared with each update meaning that there was a time that the game was prefect for you. So you are resistant to change and fighting what this game was made to be.
I expected most of these changes before they were announced.
Because they made sense in this game and i could feel their absence.
To me Underrail is becoming a better game with each update.

[Elhazzared]

The reason why making traps is not worth it is because most traps aren't worth it. A grenade you use when you want, you just toss it when needed and boom, expected result archieved. Traps are many times avoided by enemies, they just path away from them many times as if they knew they'd be there, rarely do they step on it, they also require setup time which can be quite problematic and I dunno whether or not the resource problem was already dealth but they used to take double as much as the grenades in resources which made no sense but I think that was supposed to change, not sure if it did... Also a grenade is tossed in the middle of a crowd and you hit multiple targets. A mine you put in the way and only the first guy which moves in is hit. Huge waste!.. the only way to make a mine effective is in the cases where you can always setup a field and make the enemy come into it. But that requires first save scumming, waiting to see the enemy's predictable path and movement allowance, then plant a mine somewhere where no enemy steps on it. Then you let the enemies move aroud it and doss a grenade to detonate the mine catching them in a double explosion... Gymmicky as hell and only worth a cent if the field allows that amount of setup and if you don't have a high level grenade.

Ok if you want me to put it like this. The previous version was awesome, needing more stuff and tweeks but it was pretty awesome. The new one is just plain horrible due to the merchant changes. Before picking up loot and exploring was encouraged because you gained XP and loot. Now it's not, quite frankly you could say that this system encourages you to do no more than the main quest line because really, who needs the extra junk? Why even bother to look for more cool stuff I could gain when it will just be worthless weight?.. The disussion is of course over the current version of underrail, what is wrong and right with it and how can it be made better. Obviously i'll push for anything that will make it better.

Last you go on exagerating things to prove a point which doesn't really helps. I still am right when I say that somethings must make a gammy sense because a real world sense hurt the game... Do you want the game to be a real life simulator? I belive that for that, I can just live my own life and quite frankly, I'd get the same experiences. A game is supposed to be fun, not have overly annoying and frustating mechanics that only waste everyone's time or just make the game overall, less enjoyable.

I don't have a problem with you liking the new economy. If you like being able to just go at it while not really having to search everything, exploring, really give much of a crap about anything and just get to the end in a blitz, that's your perrogative. Personally I prefer a game that will reward me for going out of the way to find more loot and doing more quest and explore every little bit of the map.

[LazyMonk]

Oh so i see, crafting traps has no flaw other than the fact that allows you to craft traps.

Now it's not, quite frankly you could say that this system encourages you to do no more than the main quest line because really, who needs the extra junk? Why even bother to look for more cool stuff I could gain when it will just be worthless weight?.. The disussion is of course over the current version of underrail, what is wrong and right with it and how can it be made better. Obviously i'll push for anything that will make it better.

Only if you are a power gamer. I enjoy searching every area and doing every quest i can find. Just because someone doesn't bring everything that isn't glued to the ground with him doesn't mean that he doesn't like to explore.

Obviously i'll push for anything that will make it better.

Objectively, no you wont. You will push it towards what you find to be more fun. And that's quite okay, but even if fun can be objectively defined (something that is amusing or enjoyable : an enjoyable experience) its is very subjective since it depends on the subject. What might be fun to some might not be fun to another.

Last you go on exagerating things to prove a point which doesn't really helps. I still am right when I say that somethings must make a gammy sense because a real world sense hurt the game... Do you want the game to be a real life simulator? I belive that for that, I can just live my own life and quite frankly, I'd get the same experiences. A game is supposed to be fun, not have overly annoying and frustating mechanics that only waste everyone's time or just make the game overall, less enjoyable.

I beg to differ. You are the one who seems to be quite found of ad absurdum fallacies. Those examples i presented are hardly exaggerations since they are common in many computer games including successful (and some less successful) rpgs. Exaggerations is when you say that crafting is useless, or when you misuse the word never, or when you state that the game is no longer objectively fun because there is a weight limit and vendors no longer buy everything you picked, even though you get much more cash than in previous versions where these restrictions didn't take place.
Harebrained Schemes exaggerate when they created Shadow Run?

Do you want the game to be a real life simulator?

Hum, no. Is that the difference between having vendors buying everything you want and vendors that have specific needs?

I belive that for that, I can just live my own life and quite frankly, I'd get the same experiences.

Do you mean that you constantly struggle with the weight of firearms when you go on your way to sell them on real life? Are you an arms dealer? Your life sounds exciting!

I don't have a problem with you liking the new economy. If you like being able to just go at it while not really having to search everything, exploring, really give much of a crap about anything and just get to the end in a blitz, that's your perrogative. Personally I prefer a game that will reward me for going out of the way to find more loot and doing more quest and explore every little bit of the map.

But why do you assume that i rush through the game. Exploring the whole map and bringing everything with you while you do it are two separate things, and believe it or not, they can exist without each other.

Sorry for keeping pushing you, over and over.
I like to argue and its quite beneficial in my line of work to keep at it if only to get better.
Its quite hard for me to resist replying when opinions are stated as facts, or when fallacies are introduced.