Author Topic: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools  (Read 49517 times)

Valor

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2023, 11:53:39 am »
Is psi even viable after the nerf?
Apologies for my ignorance, but what nerf?

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=5931.0 Psi was heavily reworked after 1.1.1.6, with reserves, psi slots and INT as important psi stat. Still controversial change for part of the community

Eidein

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2023, 03:39:51 pm »
Easiest build in the game is TC, so yes.

we wont talk about tm assault rifle  :-X

Fins

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2023, 09:14:13 am »
Here is a comprehensive psi guide ...
Any ideas, mistakes, or feedback you could give me would be helpful.
You can comment here ...
Alright, have some feedback.


Core stats for Tranquility builds

You said: "These are arguably the most optimized starting stats for a tranquility psi build". Amazingly, in the past i used exactly same stats - without seeing your guide - but later on, i found they are wrong, due to:

- Agi 10 for Blitz is too little gain for my buck. Blitz is 1-turn +20 (25 with spec) AP _by_ cutting 3x MPs, which is worse than an extra adrenaline shot, and at the price of 3 (three!) core stat points spent. I found my psi characters excel at crowd control - any psi should be at least good about it, - so extra mobility of 10 Agi (in compare to 7) is just not needed, especially given Sprint and stealth 'nades if need be. And against single targets, can always Cryostasis, stealth and end combat - whenever. 35 hard points in Metathermics for Cryostasis - is exceptionally useful for any psi build, as coupled with Toxic Gas (which doesn't break the freeze) it's just insanely useful. Hence, i now run with 7 Agility only - which is required for Interloper, which is plain straight whopping +27% better stealth, multiplicative (and even more if taking its specialization points, though i don't). +27%, because by default we go at 55% running speed while stealthed, but we go at 70% with Interloper - so, if 55% is our "100% stealth speed", then 70% is 70/0.55=127.3%. This is how much faster you move in Stealth with this perk - and faster moving means less times for enemies to detect you, and this bonus to actual usability of stealth is much higher than what we get from having 10 Agility instead of just 7: even before gear and consumables, the difference is having "just" 200 effective skill at level 30 with Agi 7 - vs having 241 with Agi 10, which is merely +20% higher skill. And this difference gets even way smaller as we add any Stealth-boosting items, of which there are many. Thus Interloper is massively more useful than some other feats you recommend, such as Sure Step, which is 1st, very situational and does absolutely nothing vast majority of the time, and 2nd, is something a psi build can completely live without (unlike, say, pure melee build early on - before access to Mutant Leather armor). Thus, by going Agi 10 > 7, i get 3 spare core stat points to improve other things;

- Int 8 max: you say anything higher is an overkill while advocating for Tranquility build (which is, by definition, a multi-school psi). Strange. Int 10 adds 7th psi slot - and that means an extra crowd control ability, or an extra hard hitter on some long CD, or an extra utility spell like -1 to all active cooldowns, - being available in combat. Which is _big_. Better yet, +2 Int meants +17% extra to all the crafting skills, Hacking and Mercantile. And we _need_ lots of skill points in there: a good pure psi needs very high Electronics to craft psi headbands, and some biology for the same; high Mechanics and significant Tailoring to craft Psi Beetle Riot Armor (27% armor penalty with a massive buff to psi skills is just too good to skip); a bit of Chemistry for at least crafting Toxic Gas grenades (which are way OP to not get). Mercantile is just lots of quality of life, Hacking is extra loot and lore - both we can live without, but it's always nice to have spare points for these. I.e., all _seven_ skills Int boosts - are desirable. Hence +2 Int to full 10 - is great skill-wise, on top of giving 7th psi slot and a bit higher psi point regen. Why on Earth you'd state it's an overkill without considering at least some builds / players may actually find it good, i just can't fathom;

- Dex 3: with just one extra starting base stat point to spend, i find going Dex 4 is what i enjoy the most. I tend to often develop to some extent four Dexterity-based skills: Lockpicks, Pickpocket, Traps and Throwing. And many players do the same. Low Perception builds get (much) easier times detecting mines if having significant Traps; Lockpicking is just a ton of extra loot, nothing to sneeze at; and few dozens points in Throwing removes real bad misses - like ones when you throw a flashbang directly on tile with an enemy some 5 tiles away, but it misses him and blinds yourself, instead. No Pickpocket if going with Classic exp, but very desired for Oddity. Thus, +10% to effective skill points in three / four needed skills (as it's -10% penalty when going with 3 Dex) - is quite useful. Multi-school psi builds (which i also prefer, like you do) have harder times about having spare skill points, as they develop at least 2 "damage dealing" skills to max - in compare to pure melee or gun builds, which need just one. One other thing - +1 Dex means permanent +1 Initiative, which is especially good when going with 7 Agi instead of 10 (which means -3 Initiative). There are some few places in the game where Initiative really matters. However, this Dex 4 is only one option for "the last core stat point". Other sensible options include going 8 Agility or even 4 Perception, for a bit higher mobility or a bit easier times detecting / secrets.


Main skills

You advocate TC+TM in detail. While sure viable, this setup has one key difference from MT+PK setup: TC+TM main AoE damage dealer scales off player character's features, while MT+PK scales off _enemies_ health in addition to scaling from player's features. Hence, TC+TM is progressively worse, overall, the higher difficulty mode one goes. I play Dominating, and MT+PK largest hit - which is, prime something with TD, then place a TP nearby, and then double-Implosion it (and hit it with other things if it's early enough in the game for Implosion to not kill it outright) for a big-time AoE blast inflicting as high damage as full health bar of Imploded enemy. Further still, both TD and Implosion are on 5-turns cooldown - while Locust of Control is a whopping 15 turns (over a minute real-time, too). Further still, MT+PK also bring in amazing crowd control abilities, such as Imprint, Cryokinesis, Cryostasis, two sorts of force fields, TG and Electrokinesis with its stun. Yet further still, both schools work vs robots (while TC doesn't at all). Last but - for me - definitely not least, MT's Cryokinesis is the longest range thing - 12 base, and 13 with certain feat. You almost can snipe with it whenever you'd like, and it's practically silent. While TD - which iirc the longest range thing TC+TM got - got base 10 range, which is almost as short max range as an SMG; and worse yet, it's not instant-damage - meaning it won't work as "kill 'em before they get alerted and all all their friends" thing. While Cryokinesis very much does, and even quite well with proper gear, Premeditation and Hypothermia feat.

Further, it's even very much doable to go 70 hard-pt TM (for Stasis and any other abilities from TM, which would still work very well apart from TD) _and_ still max out MT+PK, and use these three schools all together. -10% psi costs penalty can be completely negated by gear if so desired. Obviously, though, this would eat even more skill points - extra 70; but then, remember the above about core stats and extra psi slot (to have space for even more psi abilities in use)? Yep. It "connects" with it.

Further, even hybrids like, say, 70-TM + MT + TC are very much doable, and even amazing. Use _both_ psi AoE hard-hitters - TD from MT and LoC from TC - for maximum carnage. Really, all kinds of psi multi-school hybrids can actually be both viable and even mighty interesting to play, i'm sure.

For Psycho builds, don't have any feedback as i never play 'em. Multi-school fella here, so yeah. Tranq all the time.


Gear

You advocate Tesla armor for Electrokinesis builds. I object: this thing destroys Stealth for what, +15% damage to Electrokinesis - most of which can be gained from a high level Psi Beetle Riot Armor which still allows good stealth with 27% (or even, 12% with a certain feat) armor penalty? Looks at least questionable, to me.


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Eidein

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2023, 07:11:25 pm »
Quote
"Int 10 adds 7th psi slot - and that means an extra crowd control ability"

For what spell, 6 slots give you enough for the best spells in the game why would you need 1 more for a deficient spell?

Quote
"a good pure psi needs very high Electronics to craft psi headbands"

Yes, use workbench and Hypercerebix. Gets you 164 fast enough.

Quote
"TC+TM is progressively worse, overall, the higher difficulty mode one goes."

Hard to take you seriously on this one. TC is the highest-scaling school by far. I did faceless commander in 3 turns with TC I don't think any other psi build can even come close to that power.

Quote
Dex 3: with just one extra starting base stat point to spend, i find going Dex 4 is what i enjoy the most

This one is too retarded to respond too XD

Quote
You advocate Tesla armor for Electrokinesis builds. I object: this thing destroys Stealth for what,

Insane idea here. Take it off.

Quote
craft Psi Beetle Riot Armor

Why riot armor why not just tac vest, you have to be trolling. Riot armor is beyond useless you can't even use the shield because of the strength requirement.
Do you just like cock and ball torture by giving yourself an extra 7% armor penalty for no reason?




« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 12:46:08 am by PoopiemcButtface »

PaposikG6

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2023, 07:34:22 pm »
Here is a comprehensive psi guide ...
Any ideas, mistakes, or feedback you could give me would be helpful.
You can comment here ...
Alright, have some feedback.


Core stats for Tranquility builds

You said: "These are arguably the most optimized starting stats for a tranquility psi build". Amazingly, in the past i used exactly same stats - without seeing your guide - but later on, i found they are wrong, due to:

- Agi 10 for Blitz is too little gain for my buck. Blitz is 1-turn +20 (25 with spec) AP _by_ cutting 3x MPs, which is worse than an extra adrenaline shot, and at the price of 3 (three!) core stat points spent. I found my psi characters excel at crowd control - any psi should be at least good about it, - so extra mobility of 10 Agi (in compare to 7) is just not needed, especially given Sprint and stealth 'nades if need be. And against single targets, can always Cryostasis, stealth and end combat - whenever. 35 hard points in Metathermics for Cryostasis - is exceptionally useful for any psi build, as coupled with Toxic Gas (which doesn't break the freeze) it's just insanely useful. Hence, i now run with 7 Agility only - which is required for Interloper, which is plain straight whopping +27% better stealth, multiplicative (and even more if taking its specialization points, though i don't). +27%, because by default we go at 55% running speed while stealthed, but we go at 70% with Interloper - so, if 55% is our "100% stealth speed", then 70% is 70/0.55=127.3%. This is how much faster you move in Stealth with this perk - and faster moving means less times for enemies to detect you, and this bonus to actual usability of stealth is much higher than what we get from having 10 Agility instead of just 7: even before gear and consumables, the difference is having "just" 200 effective skill at level 30 with Agi 7 - vs having 241 with Agi 10, which is merely +20% higher skill. And this difference gets even way smaller as we add any Stealth-boosting items, of which there are many. Thus Interloper is massively more useful than some other feats you recommend, such as Sure Step, which is 1st, very situational and does absolutely nothing vast majority of the time, and 2nd, is something a psi build can completely live without (unlike, say, pure melee build early on - before access to Mutant Leather armor). Thus, by going Agi 10 > 7, i get 3 spare core stat points to improve other things;

- Int 8 max: you say anything higher is an overkill while advocating for Tranquility build (which is, by definition, a multi-school psi). Strange. Int 10 adds 7th psi slot - and that means an extra crowd control ability, or an extra hard hitter on some long CD, or an extra utility spell like -1 to all active cooldowns, - being available in combat. Which is _big_. Better yet, +2 Int meants +17% extra to all the crafting skills, Hacking and Mercantile. And we _need_ lots of skill points in there: a good pure psi needs very high Electronics to craft psi headbands, and some biology for the same; high Mechanics and significant Tailoring to craft Psi Beetle Riot Armor (27% armor penalty with a massive buff to psi skills is just too good to skip); a bit of Chemistry for at least crafting Toxic Gas grenades (which are way OP to not get). Mercantile is just lots of quality of life, Hacking is extra loot and lore - both we can live without, but it's always nice to have spare points for these. I.e., all _seven_ skills Int boosts - are desirable. Hence +2 Int to full 10 - is great skill-wise, on top of giving 7th psi slot and a bit higher psi point regen. Why on Earth you'd state it's an overkill without considering at least some builds / players may actually find it good, i just can't fathom;

- Dex 3: with just one extra starting base stat point to spend, i find going Dex 4 is what i enjoy the most. I tend to often develop to some extent four Dexterity-based skills: Lockpicks, Pickpocket, Traps and Throwing. And many players do the same. Low Perception builds get (much) easier times detecting mines if having significant Traps; Lockpicking is just a ton of extra loot, nothing to sneeze at; and few dozens points in Throwing removes real bad misses - like ones when you throw a flashbang directly on tile with an enemy some 5 tiles away, but it misses him and blinds yourself, instead. No Pickpocket if going with Classic exp, but very desired for Oddity. Thus, +10% to effective skill points in three / four needed skills (as it's -10% penalty when going with 3 Dex) - is quite useful. Multi-school psi builds (which i also prefer, like you do) have harder times about having spare skill points, as they develop at least 2 "damage dealing" skills to max - in compare to pure melee or gun builds, which need just one. One other thing - +1 Dex means permanent +1 Initiative, which is especially good when going with 7 Agi instead of 10 (which means -3 Initiative). There are some few places in the game where Initiative really matters. However, this Dex 4 is only one option for "the last core stat point". Other sensible options include going 8 Agility or even 4 Perception, for a bit higher mobility or a bit easier times detecting / secrets.


Main skills

You advocate TC+TM in detail. While sure viable, this setup has one key difference from MT+PK setup: TC+TM main AoE damage dealer scales off player character's features, while MT+PK scales off _enemies_ health in addition to scaling from player's features. Hence, TC+TM is progressively worse, overall, the higher difficulty mode one goes. I play Dominating, and MT+PK largest hit - which is, prime something with TD, then place a TP nearby, and then double-Implosion it (and hit it with other things if it's early enough in the game for Implosion to not kill it outright) for a big-time AoE blast inflicting as high damage as full health bar of Imploded enemy. Further still, both TD and Implosion are on 5-turns cooldown - while Locust of Control is a whopping 15 turns (over a minute real-time, too). Further still, MT+PK also bring in amazing crowd control abilities, such as Imprint, Cryokinesis, Cryostasis, two sorts of force fields, TG and Electrokinesis with its stun. Yet further still, both schools work vs robots (while TC doesn't at all). Last but - for me - definitely not least, MT's Cryokinesis is the longest range thing - 12 base, and 13 with certain feat. You almost can snipe with it whenever you'd like, and it's practically silent. While TD - which iirc the longest range thing TC+TM got - got base 10 range, which is almost as short max range as an SMG; and worse yet, it's not instant-damage - meaning it won't work as "kill 'em before they get alerted and all all their friends" thing. While Cryokinesis very much does, and even quite well with proper gear, Premeditation and Hypothermia feat.

Further, it's even very much doable to go 70 hard-pt TM (for Stasis and any other abilities from TM, which would still work very well apart from TD) _and_ still max out MT+PK, and use these three schools all together. -10% psi costs penalty can be completely negated by gear if so desired. Obviously, though, this would eat even more skill points - extra 70; but then, remember the above about core stats and extra psi slot (to have space for even more psi abilities in use)? Yep. It "connects" with it.

Further, even hybrids like, say, 70-TM + MT + TC are very much doable, and even amazing. Use _both_ psi AoE hard-hitters - TD from MT and LoC from TC - for maximum carnage. Really, all kinds of psi multi-school hybrids can actually be both viable and even mighty interesting to play, i'm sure.

For Psycho builds, don't have any feedback as i never play 'em. Multi-school fella here, so yeah. Tranq all the time.


Gear

You advocate Tesla armor for Electrokinesis builds. I object: this thing destroys Stealth for what, +15% damage to Electrokinesis - most of which can be gained from a high level Psi Beetle Riot Armor which still allows good stealth with 27% (or even, 12% with a certain feat) armor penalty? Looks at least questionable, to me.
TL;DR

Next time if you make a troll comment, try to not be too obvious with writing things like "4 DEX is better than 3 DEX on a build that isn't using DEX at all"
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Dutch_Boy

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2023, 01:26:08 pm »
... So, your only recommended Psychosis start, the quad school build, uses the Tranquility stat template? O.o

Eidein

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2023, 08:21:22 pm »
... So, your only recommended Psychosis start, the quad school build, uses the Tranquility stat template? O.o

How does quad psi use the tranq template, the tranq template is 3 con whilst the quad psi is 10 con.

Seven

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2023, 10:48:43 pm »
I'm sorry, I'm using a translator.

I tried to play in different ways. And I have to completely agree with the TC TM build.

I tried to change the assembly a little. My F9 took a new level and I just wanted to get fatter. Take 6 con for fast metabolism. Don tactical armor with psi beetle. But I realized one simple thing. It's all not worth it. Fast feet are not afraid of blows. Sacrificing mobility for the sake of modest protection is stupid. Pit Bull will tear you apart from 3 con and 6 con.

The only thing I would like to get Paranoia early. And somewhere else to cram Uncanny Dodge. But it's unclear what to change. Eyes cling to Sure step and Blitz. But they are good in themselves. The first one saves you from a stupid change of shoes and Depot A is much more comfortable to walk with. But he is still situational. I don't understand why Biohazard Boots can't be obtained in Act 1. Blitz looks cool, but you can drain all the psi points in one move without it. And 60 MP is 60 MP. Fast feet are not afraid of blows. Yes, this also applies to Uncanny Dodge. But there is not always room for maneuver. And here are guaranteed a few dodges. Oh, these torments of choice.

And I also have a question. What to do with fucking crawlers? Yes, I read the article. But so far, the only thing that comes to mind is to put on cooler glasses and keep your finger on the "start of battle" button. Like in a stupid western.

P.S. Thank you for a good guide.

Eidein

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2023, 06:16:16 pm »
I'm sorry, I'm using a translator.

I tried to play in different ways. And I have to completely agree with the TC TM build.

I tried to change the assembly a little. My F9 took a new level and I just wanted to get fatter. Take 6 con for fast metabolism. Don tactical armor with psi beetle. But I realized one simple thing. It's all not worth it. Fast feet are not afraid of blows. Sacrificing mobility for the sake of modest protection is stupid. Pit Bull will tear you apart from 3 con and 6 con.

The only thing I would like to get Paranoia early. And somewhere else to cram Uncanny Dodge. But it's unclear what to change. Eyes cling to Sure step and Blitz. But they are good in themselves. The first one saves you from a stupid change of shoes and Depot A is much more comfortable to walk with. But he is still situational. I don't understand why Biohazard Boots can't be obtained in Act 1. Blitz looks cool, but you can drain all the psi points in one move without it. And 60 MP is 60 MP. Fast feet are not afraid of blows. Yes, this also applies to Uncanny Dodge. But there is not always room for maneuver. And here are guaranteed a few dodges. Oh, these torments of choice.

And I also have a question. What to do with fucking crawlers? Yes, I read the article. But so far, the only thing that comes to mind is to put on cooler glasses and keep your finger on the "start of battle" button. Like in a stupid western.

P.S. Thank you for a good guide.

Hey,

For the feats you can swap out sure step and replace it with uncanny dodge.
For crawlers uncanny dodge with Pseudo-spatial Projection spell will be enough for them never to hit you. To lure them out head into the area you think they are present and cast stasis, they will bunch around you and wont hide.

I've played 3 con on ironman dom and died twice in total its really a choice of glass cannon vs some mix of defence and offense. To be honest even 6 con is still on that F9 reload level if you get hit but its a little more forgiving with 3 without fast metabolism. Its really up to you.

Thanks

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2023, 07:10:28 pm »
What is your opinion on Forceful Innervation feat? Is it worth getting?

Eidein

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2023, 04:37:10 pm »
What is your opinion on Forceful Innervation feat? Is it worth getting?

Thats only if you play on legacy branch its not a base game feat. Its used for keeping characters from legacy the same if they update.

robobobr

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2023, 12:43:58 pm »
Yes but there's a way to get it even now, by switching to beta version 1.1.1.6 in Steam options, starting a character there and then switching back to current version. The question is should one bother?

Valor

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2023, 02:33:36 pm »
Its straight up an upgrade. As you use Will for both your casting and slots. Its not intended to play that way, but as its single player game, you can do whatever ;)

Eidein

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2023, 06:07:53 pm »
Yes but there's a way to get it even now, by switching to beta version 1.1.1.6 in Steam options, starting a character there and then switching back to current version. The question is should one bother?

Psi was rebalanced for a reason.

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Re: A Detailed Psi Guide | for new and experienced players | all schools
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2024, 03:21:10 pm »
Sorry for necro bumping, but wouldn't you need 9 int to get the philosophy feat from the ferryman?