Al Fabet

[dirtman]

what Sanger mentioned about the food and special bolts makes sense. it would be expected that they buy food and any kind of ammo in virtually unlimited quantities. but considering other loot i really don't see the problem. i'm melting crap into components all the time and literally swim in repair kits.

besides, in my experience, merchants usually spend all the money they have on the stuff i bring back so if i could sell them everything it really wouldn't make much of a difference.

[Elhazzared]

As far as I'm aware, I was not the only one complaining. There were several people who did complain about this system. So it was far from being a "lonely crusade". Also I never derailed topics into that. I've specificly posted on topics about this situation and if I was constantly going on about it it was simply because I wished for Styg to implement the option as soon as possible and not save it as a lat minute thing because I wanted to keep being involved into the early access and that system completly ruined the game into unplayability for me. I cannot enjoy the game one bit because of it.

If Styg decided against it because of my insistence then there isn't much I can say about that other than he deliberatly chose to make the worse than he could have especially when it would take no development time at all to keep the old system, it was already designed and working, it only needed the option to switch in between. It's not even a case of additional development time needed.

I've always said that it's ok to experiement with a system which might be deliberatly bad. Much like the oddity which I dislike. it's ok to have the option there, so long as it's an option. Not that I think the oddity system is bad but the merchant system certainly is as it removes all incentive of exploration since you don't care about extra loot that you cannot carry nor sell. It also pretty much does the same for the side quests though I guess you might take some just to level up quicker.

Right now people play their first time, explore everything, do the side quests. On other playthroughs, how much exploration do you think they will do? How many side quests do you think they will take? I imagine most will ignore exploration except go this specif place or that specific place for a specific item that is there or take a specific side quest for a very specific reward or just wanting to be X level before tackling the next main storyline quest.

The game teaches you to ignore what you don't need by leaving it behind, it's extra weight, it might not be worth that much. The side effect is that it teaches you to simply ignore a large part of the game because what you will get you won't need. This is a very real problem whether or not some harcore fans of the new merchant system want to recognise it and more importantly, whether or not Styg wants to recognise it.

As it is, Styg pretty much didn't cared for it. It's his game, it's his right to say how his game is made. But at the same time as total biscuit once said. A game is not the developer's but it's the player's game. They play the game the way they want it or they won't play it at all and this is very true for me and many others. Right now I'm waiting someone can make a mod that will make the game good and once someone does that I will not atribute the game being good to Styg but to the mod autor.

Similarly, because of this issue, myself and people who feel similar to me to this horrible system will not have any good will towards Styg in the future so whenever he makes a new game, we are the people who won't consider buying into early access.

[player1]

Interesting...
In my second play-through I explore the more then in my first.

In the first one, I did not try to explore much due to same reasons. I would just get a lot of loot that I would need to carry back to the towns, which I did not need, since there is more then enough loot if I follow the quests. Plus monsters respawn so anything I do I would feel it would get reset at some point later.

But, now in second playthrough I explore more because I did not do it in the 1st one, so game is more fresh, and second due to oddity system, so I can get every bit of extra experience possible quicker, plus it is nice to find sometimes some unique weapon.

Also, not all enemies respawn, so killing human bandits has some finality on its own. Just because they do not give XP and I do not need their loot does not mean I'm not progressing in the game.

[dirtman]

Elhazzared, dude, it seems you've been into this game for a time now. surely you understand there's more to it than collecting loot and selling it to merchants for shiny coins.

[robling]

I'm glad the carry limits are what they are and that the trade system functions as it does.  It's very much like the original Fallouts, where in order to trade you had to travel and plan.

Ha, that is a bold lie. In Fallout anyone would buy anything as long as they had something to trade for it.

The trading system in Underrail is understandable from a game balance point of view but it makes little sense a lot of the time. Traders will buy any amount of ammunition but not any amount of food (guess which one of these things is likely to be in higher demand? hint, it's the one that everybody needs constantly regardless of circumstances), they'll buy any amount of plain crossbow bolts but only a couple of special bolts at a time for some inexplicable reason (one would think the deadlier bolts would be in higher demand!), etc.

A bold lie? Did I say it was exactly the same?  no, I said it is very much like it. It has the same interface at it's core and the only difference is that traders are only after certain things.

That leaves them very much alike.

I'm going to be brutally honest:  You seem to have some issues, man.  This seems to be an unreasonable focus you have that does not fall on the side of "reasonable things to be very concerned with."

Ammo would be a form of currency in and of itself.  Buying infinite food, when in reality it won't last forever does not make sense.  Ammo is always needed.  Countless real life studies have concluded that in such a situation, ammo would be a very likely form of currency.

[robling]

Further, it is NOT hard to just take things back to your apartment or make trips back.  It just isn't.  If you view moving around in a video game as a level of effort that kills an entire, amazing game for you, I'd implore you to consider changing your standards for what is actually taxing and what isn't.

Money is not hard to get, it simply requires a little effort and putting together a trade route.  You also have the option of going for a high strength build and there is a feat to help you out (although I would never use it, personally.  I can just store things, come back for them, or take them back to my place.  If the difference between getting what I want and not getting what I want is a minor amount of nonphysically strenuous effort, I'm going to make the effort, personally.)

[Elhazzared]

Elhazzared, dude, it seems you've been into this game for a time now. surely you understand there's more to it than collecting loot and selling it to merchants for shiny coins.

Perhaps to you this isn't an important part of the game and as I said rpeviously, this will just make players not want to go explore and do side quests. Basicly, they will ignore a large part of the game because what is the point? You can't sell it anyway!

As for me, there is more to the game than looting, but if the looting aspect of an RPG isn't good then the RPG is dead to me. I tried to play several times during early access after this horrible system was implemented. Almost all times I wouldn't go past taking the outposts because I couldn't even sell that tiny amount of loot. The one time I went further than that and I wasn't enjoying it very much I went as far as the SGS at which point I rage wuited over not even being able to carry the loot that is on SGS. Not to mention I knew even what I had I couldn't sell probably sell half of it.

The game just loses all the fun once you turn loot into trash. It's kinda the same thing neverwinter did. You spend the whole game, beggining to end in shitty green gear and that poor progression killed the game for me.

Now let's compare when I started playing the game before this system was implemented? Aside from providing good feedback, I classified this game as being the best RPG I had played since fallout 2 and fallout 2 is the RPG of RPGs. Nothing even comes close to it. I made a vid that I put on my Youtube channel showing off the game and giving a few tips as to how to deal with the dificult enemies early on (something probably not needed now as the dificulty was lowered early on). I even started a let's play series which I had to stop doing mostly because I stoped having the proper envoirement (read, too much noise around) to do it, however the patch came relatively shortly after I started doing it anyway so I'd have canceled it anyways. I also advised everyone I knew hat if they wanted a good RPG the likes they haven't seen since fallout 2 to give this a try.

So this is how the game changed for me. From best RPG made in the last decade to the most horrible RPG I've ever played, all thanks to a couple changes. Carry weights which are ridiculously low even on 10 str, mostly because things like metal armor and sledge hammers weight a ton which realisticly make sense, but the truth is that from a gamming perspective they should be lowered for a better playabillity. And the merchant changes which was by far the most weighty thing and made the game completly unplayable for me.

In a game like this, looking for that better piece of gear, killing more enemies for XP and you know, if the next awesome piece of gear doesn't drops, what the enemy drops is what you use to buy it. This does not exists anymore. The world isn't fun to interact with because the most important thing in an RPG was made into trash. Loot! Go play any RPG and loot is the major aspect of the game.

[Sanger]

A bold lie? Did I say it was exactly the same?  no, I said it is very much like it. It has the same interface at it's core and the only difference is that traders are only after certain things.

The trading systems in Fallout and Underrail are nothing alike. To suggest that planning trips in order to offload all of your junk is necessary in Fallout is simply wrong, because NPCs don't have limits on what items they'll buy or how many of each item they'll purchase.

I'm going to be brutally honest:  You seem to have some issues, man.

I'm also going to be brutally honest: your saying this as a total stranger on the Internet means absolutely nothing to me. 

Countless real life studies have concluded that in such a situation, ammo would be a very likely form of currency.

Haha, "countless real life studies", wow. So why do Underrail merchants buy all your plain bolts but not your specialty bolts then?

I know you love the game, but there's nothing wrong with being able to see flaws in something you enjoy rather than just defending it to the death out of blind loyalty.

[Fenix]

Not that I think the oddity system is bad but the merchant system certainly is as it removes all incentive of exploration since you don't care about extra loot that you cannot carry nor sell.

Wrong for me. Incentive of exploration still exist because there are intelligent stories to hear, and interesting people to kill (or vice versa).

On other playthroughs, how much exploration do you think they will do? How many side quests do you think they will take? I imagine most will ignore exploration

And this has nothing to do with merchants and trading system. I see no difference here from Fallout, where merchants will buy almost everything (except Geiger counter).
On 10 playthrough people won't do all quests too, and if they do, they will do it in Underrail.

A game is not the developer's but it's the player's game. They play the game the way they want it or they won't play it at all and this is very true for me and many others.

When we talk about pure author's work, like in case of Underrail, it's the same as if we dictate a writer how character should look and act.
No, it is a auhor work and world, it is he who dictates to us how to read his book so that we can know exactly what the author wanted to say to us.
After we did it, we can paint the cover and draw a mustache to main character.
Even if we don't want to know the author's intent, we cannot deny the author's right that we learn the author's message exactly as the author wants.

[Sanger]

A game is not the developer's but it's the player's game. They play the game the way they want it or they won't play it at all and this is very true for me and many others.

When we talk about pure author's work, like in case of Underrail, it's the same as if we dictate a writer how character should look and act.
No, it is a auhor work and world, it is he who dictates to us how to read his book so that we can know exactly what the author wanted to say to us.
After we did it, we can paint the cover and draw a mustache to main character.
Even if we don't want to know the author's intent, we cannot deny the author's right that we learn the author's message exactly as the author wants.

You are each adopting an extreme point of view and you are both wrong. First, games aren't books, their user interface is much more complex and subject to scrutiny. Second, the developer has full right to do as he pleases with his game and to choose what does and doesn't match his vision for it, but those playing it have the right also to offer feedback and suggestions, and good developers will listen, as the perspective of a player often includes things the developer did not account for. The Suggestions subforum is not purely decorative.

[Fenix]

Basicly, they will ignore a large part of the game because what is the point? You can't sell it anyway!

You can't be more wrong then with sentnse like this.
Don't you understand that the reward is quest itself?
New places, new characters, new puzzles?
Looks like we did a full circle.

First, games aren't books

I never said that the games are books.
I'll give you two words - metaphor and analogy, and on that level of discussion I'm done with it.

[Sanger]

First, games aren't books

I never said that the games are books.
I'll give you two words - metaphor and analogy, and on that level of discussion I'm done with it.

You said: "When we talk about pure author's work, like in case of Underrail, it's the same as if we dictate a writer how character should look and act. No, it is a auhor work and world, it is he who dictates to us how to read his book so that we can know exactly what the author wanted to say to us." Direct comparison between games and books. Bad analogy. Books are always read in the same way, only the content changes. Games all play differently. If they don't play well in some way the developer must know.

[Elhazzared]

Fenix, the quest itself is a reward the first time you do it. After doing it one time, no one will care and it is possible some people will not even care to do it even once cause there is no incentive to do it. What you are going to gain as an advantage for your character is completly lost because you cannot do anything with the loot you get not to mention you can't even haul possibly a huge part of it.

I understand that you like the system as it is. but the system is bad and encourages you to just ignore a big part of the content that was created since there is no reward fr doing it. You say just doing it is plenty reward. Sorry, that's just a waste of time from most peoples perpective. People don't tend to do something unless they have something to gain from it.

[MichaelBurge]

Elhazzared, dude, it seems you've been into this game for a time now. surely you understand there's more to it than collecting loot and selling it to merchants for shiny coins.

Perhaps to you this isn't an important part of the game and as I said rpeviously, this will just make players not want to go explore and do side quests. Basicly, they will ignore a large part of the game because what is the point? You can't sell it anyway!

As for me, there is more to the game than looting, but if the looting aspect of an RPG isn't good then the RPG is dead to me. I tried to play several times during early access after this horrible system was implemented. Almost all times I wouldn't go past taking the outposts because I couldn't even sell that tiny amount of loot. The one time I went further than that and I wasn't enjoying it very much I went as far as the SGS at which point I rage wuited over not even being able to carry the loot that is on SGS. Not to mention I knew even what I had I couldn't sell probably sell half of it.

The game just loses all the fun once you turn loot into trash. It's kinda the same thing neverwinter did. You spend the whole game, beggining to end in shitty green gear and that poor progression killed the game for me.

Now let's compare when I started playing the game before this system was implemented? Aside from providing good feedback, I classified this game as being the best RPG I had played since fallout 2 and fallout 2 is the RPG of RPGs. Nothing even comes close to it. I made a vid that I put on my Youtube channel showing off the game and giving a few tips as to how to deal with the dificult enemies early on (something probably not needed now as the dificulty was lowered early on). I even started a let's play series which I had to stop doing mostly because I stoped having the proper envoirement (read, too much noise around) to do it, however the patch came relatively shortly after I started doing it anyway so I'd have canceled it anyways. I also advised everyone I knew hat if they wanted a good RPG the likes they haven't seen since fallout 2 to give this a try.

So this is how the game changed for me. From best RPG made in the last decade to the most horrible RPG I've ever played, all thanks to a couple changes. Carry weights which are ridiculously low even on 10 str, mostly because things like metal armor and sledge hammers weight a ton which realisticly make sense, but the truth is that from a gamming perspective they should be lowered for a better playabillity. And the merchant changes which was by far the most weighty thing and made the game completly unplayable for me.

In a game like this, looking for that better piece of gear, killing more enemies for XP and you know, if the next awesome piece of gear doesn't drops, what the enemy drops is what you use to buy it. This does not exists anymore. The world isn't fun to interact with because the most important thing in an RPG was made into trash. Loot! Go play any RPG and loot is the major aspect of the game.

It's not too hard to either edit the game to effectively remove the loot weight, or to edit the running game's memory to set every item to have 0 weight. To get around the merchant sell limits, you could again either edit the game or hack yourself some more money and throw the unsellable loot in a dedicated garbage bin. I myself ran through the game with 3 strength and the Pack Rat feat without doing either, but I know someone who used the Cheat Engine[1] tool to override the carry limit.

I feel like it may be more pragmatic to change the one thing that's bothering you, finish the game, and then move onto something else once you've gotten everything you want out of it.

[1] http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?t=586479

[player1]

As for me, there is more to the game than looting, but if the looting aspect of an RPG isn't good then the RPG is dead to me. I tried to play several times during early access after this horrible system was implemented. Almost all times I wouldn't go past taking the outposts because I couldn't even sell that tiny amount of loot. The one time I went further than that and I wasn't enjoying it very much I went as far as the SGS at which point I rage wuited over not even being able to carry the loot that is on SGS. Not to mention I knew even what I had I couldn't sell probably sell half of it.

I must ask, how long have you *not* played the game and still hang in the forums?!?

You talk about not even passing very early game with the loot system. I was assuming you at least know what you talk about and have played at least whole game once with the current system, instead of just b******* about new system. Heck, when we are at this, have you even played oddity XP?

Yes, the system can be a chore from time to time, but just because you can not *easily* sell all loot, does not mean all loot is bad. You can find decent crating components and good armor weapons. And whatever you can not sell right away, you can easily *stash* it.

Also, by being "systematic" (documenting what every merchant may want to buy) I was able to sell ALL loot I wanted to sell before getting into Deep Cavens, in my first playthrough. And no metal armor was ever left in the wildness. Maybe some hammers, those hammers have very bad weight/cost ratio to be worth it, most of the time.

The sheer amount of merchant shops and boat/train system were enough to sell all I wanted, after I got access to all the traders. There is whole game of "Elite" inside world of Underrrail. Although piloting starship is cooler then walking around.


Truth to be told, the biggest issue for most of the time was selling crossbows and boots. Especially boots. Not many traders buy boots, and everybody drops boots. 


Interesting enough, due to me being this systematic, the Deep Cavern section totally tuned around everything for me. Almost no merchants and an insane amount of loot. But I was able to adapt my making my base in the warehouse where I stashed everything I found elsewhere in the region. There is a reason why you can stash stuff in containers.