Al Fabet

[player1]

Now, with all said, I do think that some streamlining could help the game.

For example, it is not fun to spend 15min just walking around between merchants in the city and your stash, since you can not carry everything you want to sell in the same town at once. That is just wasted time.

Why not have "abstract" stash, that you can access from UI, when in towns/controlled areas, to store excess equipment?

Think of it as your belongings that you do not carry on yourself, but can easy get to without effort. Stuff you keep in your room when in the town, instead carrying around in backpack.

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Heck, if you want to expand this, it would be cool if such stashes are unlocked by some actions. For example in SGS, that is automatic. You have your room, thus access to the stash. Then in the Junkyard, you could pay some fee to the barkeep to keep your stuff, thus unlocking your stash, etc...

When system like this is in place, then you can introduce Fallout1/2 style unsafe stashes, where some things are just not save to keep, and will eventually get looted.

[Fenix]

You said: "When we talk about pure author's work, like in case of Underrail, it's the same as if we dictate a writer how character should look and act. No, it is a auhor work and world, it is he who dictates to us how to read his book so that we can know exactly what the author wanted to say to us." Direct comparison between games and books. Bad analogy. Books are always read in the same way, only the content changes. Games all play differently. If they don't play well in some way the developer must know.

All you said is a bullshit - look, I'm on your level of discussion.

[Sanger]

Pretty hostile, aren't you?

[Fenix]

Not at all.

[Sanger]

Just incredibly rude and defensive, then.

[chimaera]

Elhazzared, dude, it seems you've been into this game for a time now. surely you understand there's more to it than collecting loot and selling it to merchants for shiny coins.

Perhaps to you this isn't an important part of the game and as I said rpeviously, this will just make players not want to go explore and do side quests. Basicly, they will ignore a large part of the game because what is the point? You can't sell it anyway!

I have no doubts some player are that obsessed with looting, but they aren't in the majority. But "the most important thing in an RPG"? Really? What about such things as lore, quest lines, character development, NPC interactions, puzzles, enemy encounters?

If I wanted to play a game with a heavy focus on buying & selling, I'd rather play Monopoly with friends.

[Elhazzared]

Player1 - I've hang around for a while, I guess for years because this game is potentialy the best RPG since fallout 2. If only the merchant system wasn't so incredibly bad! I've been here in the hopes that Styg would give us what he said he might do at some point which is, add the option between both merchant systems and carry weight limits.

Of course I haven't played the whole game with the current system! The current system is so bad that I can't even play it, I hate every second of playing it with this system so do you expect me to grit my teeth and play it to the end? What is the point? Games are for people to have fun, not for them to endure a bad time. That said, when the old system was in place where there was neither carry weight limits and merchants bought everything you sold them so long as they had money I finished the content the game had to offer twice with 2 different builds and then even tried to start a let's play series but alas it was never to be finished. As for oddity, I've never played on oddity by choice. My way of looking at it is, Oddity is a system that was made specificly for the players who wanted pacifist playthroughs. Who didn't just want to go everywhere killing everything just to gain the XP. I however like aggressive playthroughs, go everywhere, kill everything so I prefer classic where my XP comes from completing quests and killing things.

Yes you can find good loot and crafting components, if you're a crafter anyway. However there is no point to spend hours looking for a better piece of gear if all the bad ones can't be carried and sold because just a you can find better gear you can also BUY better gear... I know that closer to the end you will only want to craft cause anything you craft is better, not the issue here. The early game must be satisfying to play as well.

Being systematic is nice to say, but when you start the game you have nearly no sellers to sell loot to and you have to consider the pain that it is until you unlock all sellers as well. Also as you said, it is a chore to walk around to every merchant throughout the whole underrail just to be able to sell the majority of your stuff. And this beneficts the game in which way? Realism? Is a little bit of realism worth making the player waste that much time? Or perhaps should the game include such things known as quallity of life improvements as they so well named it on the current patch?

MichelBurge - That is good for carry weight, to actually make merchants work as they used it's not possible to do. Maybe you can hack money and throw stuff away but we ae entering the too much trouble to constantly do it not to mention it doesn't feels satisfying. The merchants aren't really buying, you are just pretending the game is doing what it's supposed to do. which as far as the carry weight works, not so much with merchants.

Chimera - Looting is the main mechanic of games like fallout and underrail and such RPGs. Loot = money and money = a stronger character. This creates the sense of improvement throughout the game alongside the leveling. Many players will still play this game with this system, but the truth is, given a choice between this system and the old I have no doubts the majority would prefer the old.

In any game the most important thing are it's mechanics. You can have a beautiful lore, interesting NPCs and so on. If the game mechanics are not good, the game isn't good. A game is an interactive experience and thus each player will create his own story based in his own interactions. However if the interactions are bad because the mechanics don't support it well enough, it just won't work.

[player1]

Trurth to be told, I do not think you have good idea how this system works, or how to optimally play with it to enjoy the game, due to stubborn rejecting of playing with it for any decent amount of time to give valid critique of it.

Same for the oditty system.

Thus, your critizism of it feels outdated, since it is not criticism of current game but of first game impressions from the alpha that introduced the changes.

[Elhazzared]

The last time I tried to play the game it was 2 patches before release and I couldn't play with that system. How is it not valid critique if I can't play with it. If it makes my gameplay experience so bad that I can't even play for more than a few minutes ad quit in disgust? Bear in mind that before said system was put in place I would play the whole content available of the game and sing nothing but praises to the game!

As for the oddity system. I personally do not like it because it does not fits my playstyle. I don't really want to have to go around finding the scatered oddities to level up. I prefer the classic system. Do quests, kill things especially since the way I like to play the game is kill everything... I did not say it was a bad system, I just don't like it, it doesn't suits my playstyle but as long as it's an option over the normal XP system then I won't complain about it, but I certainly will not use it.

My problem is that first and foremost. Merchants have a limit of how many items they will buy and that they only buy specific types of items. There is nothing outdated about this because it is exactly how it it works. Merchants should buy everything so long as they have cash. I'd even go as far as saying they should have unlimited cash just so that players aren't forced to visit several just to sell everything, but hey, I'll be glad just for them buying everything, no limits! Second, carry weights. Realistic or not, all that it acomplishes is force the players to stop doign whatever they are doing to go sell stuff and thus break immersion (this assuming the merchants would actually buy everything). the carry eight would bother me less if some items were not as heavy as they are, again good examples are sledge hammers and metal armor, but also there are other things that are also quite heavy.

So you are wrong, there is absolutly nothing outdated about my problems with the game. Unless you are to tell me that merchants now buy everything you sell them and there are no carry weights anymore.

[player1]

The last time I tried to play the game it was 2 patches before release and I couldn't play with that system. How is it not valid critique if I can't play with it. If it makes my gameplay experience so bad that I can't even play for more than a few minutes ad quit in disgust? Bear in mind that before said system was put in place I would play the whole content available of the game and sing nothing but praises to the game!

Thing is, your critique is essentially bad first impressions.

It is very valid as first impressions, but only as such.

Since you did not experience decent amount of play time with it, you can not do proper deep critique of it. Only "theory crafting", and what you think game would feel when playing with such system when getting deeper into game, despite not playing nor experiencing it yourself.

Thus, your feedback is less valuable as such.

As for the oddity system. I personally do not like it because it does not fits my playstyle. I don't really want to have to go around finding the scatered oddities to level up. I prefer the classic system. Do quests, kill things especially since the way I like to play the game is kill everything... I did not say it was a bad system, I just don't like it, it doesn't suits my playstyle but as long as it's an option over the normal XP system then I won't complain about it, but I certainly will not use it.

Oddity system is great for exploring, essentially the thing you think is lacking due to the loot/trading system.

And just to know, you still do get XP for the quests.

Also, I do not really see the need for XP for killing enemies.

For human enemies, their loot as well as passage you clear out, is reward on its own. Yes, loot. Just because metal armors and hammers are difficult to pawn does not mean there is no more then enough other valuable loot that weights less, or useful items to keep. Firearms are easy to pawn (value of 1000 per kilo) or stash and pawn later.

For monster enemies, reward is crating components. Also, due to monster respawning, which is necessary for crafting system to work correctly, oddity system is better, since it does prevent grinding for XP which is ugly and outdated RPG mechanic.

Merchants should buy everything so long as they have cash.

Why should they? For player convenience? Merchants should follow their own interests. And that means the need to keep their buying power, instead getting everything from first adventurer that arrived that day, so that when there is something really interesting that they have cash to buy it.

Second, carry weights. Realistic or not, all that it acomplishes is force the players to stop doign whatever they are doing to go sell stuff and thus break immersion (this assuming the merchants would actually buy everything).

No. The stashes are there for the reason. If you can not carry something, stash it nearby, or just leave it if it is not worth carrying. Return for it later when you finish your adventure, if it is valuable enough to be bothered.

Also, selling immediately is not mandatory. Keep items and stash them near compatible merchants to sell later when they get buying power back.

Also, post Junkyard, players should be swimming in money, so there is not even requirement to sell most of the stuff you accumulate in stashes, in order to buy other stuff. The only exception being cosmetic house upgrades in Core City or Super Steel Bars from Foundry for advanced late game crating. But at that point, there should be more then enough merchants to pawn most of the valuable stuff.

^This still does not mean that exploring and gaining loot is not rewarding. It is, because for every several items that are only worth selling, there will be something else that will benefit you directly to keep. Either being crafting component, ammo, or weapon/armor that is better then you use, or an oddity item.

[player1]

Since I feel inspired, let me talk a bit more about loot system.

My personal method of playing is "systematic master trader extraordinaire". No loot is left behind lying around, exempt in stashes (even if that means that stash is in the wildness and has only low value loot). Trade route planning where to sell stuff etc...

But there are other play styles too. For example, the style I like to call "realistic burglar".

Does burglar tries to loot everything?

No, only what they can carry and has high value per weight, or is something that is useful for them directly (heavy crating component or backup metal armor for energy resistance enemies). Even such style requires use of stashes, but mostly for backup items or crafting materials, and less for the things to sell, since with this kind of playstyle, only items with high value per weight are worth looting for the purpose of selling.

For this style, I think game would benefit if there is sorting by value per weigh unit.

For example, both animal organs and sledgehammers have awful value per weight unit, while electronics have awesome value per weight unit, and firearms are decent but not great.

This could even be color coded for convenience, to figure out at glance how value is item for looting.

[player1]

Now, maybe some other improvements to trade system could be done.

For example, lets say that weapon merchant currently does not want to buy any new firearms (already bought the desired quota).

Why not have ability, that if you buy a gun from him, you gain ability to sell another gun in its place?

Hey, Mr. Merchant, can I barter this gun for that SMG?
How much to I need to pay extra for that?

That would be really cool.

Heck, I'll put this in suggestion forum...

[Elhazzared]

How is it theory crafting? The 2 points I've essencially made will happen throughout the whole game. it's not theory, it's how it works. Merchants will never buy everything and carry weights will prevent you from carrying all the loot you find unless you stop to go sell it/stash it.

My feedback is very valid reguarding that issue. I never said no one will play this game like this. I said, because of this, I can't play the game and people like me won't.

As for whether the other system is better or no. For your theory crafting curiosity. The previous system had 0 complaints. Everyone liked it. The new system has people like me who can't even play the game, people who play it but would prefer the old system and people who like the new system better. So we went from a system everyone was happy with to a system that many people are unsatisfied with, a few to the point of not even playing the game because of how bad it is.

This is once again valid feedback.

If you mean about me saying that people will not explore and not do most sidequests. Well, you pretty much had epili saying that he didnt even bothered the first time, now he's doing more to see the areas. Odds are, once he's seen all there is to see, he's not going to bother doing it again... Again people don't like doing pointless things. It's natural human behavior. If it's pointless to go to an area where you know you won't be getting anything out of it, you won't go there, it's a waste of time.

The oddity system can make you explore a bit more. Sure, but that an horrible grindy way to get levels. You have to basicly waste time doing something for nothing more than gaining one more level. Note that I don't know whether this is necessary or not because I dunno how will the leveling process be in oddity... granted not so much on classic anymore too because there's been changes to XP since the time I practicly stopped playing (safe from the few atempts only qo quit quickly after).

Killing enemies as a way to grind XP is not an outdated system, it is still the system used by pretty much every RPG and do you know why? Because it works! We could debate about whether or not this is good however it is a subjective topic. What I can say is. I don't go out of my way to grind XP, I go out of my way to find loot and enemies I kill happen to award XP in the process. It's a win/win situation the way I see it.

You say enemies drop loot, in one way or another. My point remains the same, you can't carry all of it and from what you can carry, only a small part is able to be sold... Granted, further into the game there are more merchants available which means you can sell more but you already had to deal with the very bad early game and even then you still can't sell everything, not to mention that you have to waste a lot of time going between merchants just to sell.

Why should merchants buy everything? It's that quallity of life thingy. Yes, it's not very realistic but you know what? I makes the game that much more enjoyable for the majority of people. Sometimes realism has to take a step back towards build good game mechanics. I could argue from a realistic point of view that there is no such thing as certain things not being in demand because they always are, even if not in their original form, then at least in the components they have which can be used for a variety of things. However I don't like using realism as an escuse. this is a game and the simple matter of it is. Realism is not an escuse, a game needs good mechanics and if realism has to take a step back, then realism takes the step back.

Stashing to sell later in a town or just going and selling it immediatly is nearly the same thing. In fact it probably is better to sell immeditatly considering while you continue the quest the merchant might reset an be able to buy more.

Some items are worth keeping obviously but the majority of items you find are just vendor trash (do note that even a very good gun that is worse than the one you have is considered vendor trash). You can't sell everything and that is a cardinal sin because that was the whole reason you were exploring. Carry weight is merely a. Instead of stop doing what I'm doing to dump inventory, I just continue on and once I'm finished here I'll go sell. It's not realistic yes, but it's more immersive that you completly do what you are doing and then go sell rather than stoping several times to dump inventory.

You also make a good point that post junkyard players are swimming in money. This happened in the previous system too and was a complaint players had. However this new system makes it impossible to balance the issue. If you limit how much a player can sell then you must give it a good amount of cash for it while the previous system could simply adjust the value of items a little bit... Either way this should not be a reason to have bad game mechanics. Just because you still make more than enough you should highly limit a player in what he can take and what he can sell.

As a last point about money in RPGs, while it's always possible to balance it better, you always get a lot more than you need no matter the game. You're always straped for cash early on and midgame you have a lot. It this wrong? It's yet another subjective topic, my thoughts are that players should always be able to buy the next best thing when they move on to the next town with better items, however, some people will disagree.

[player1]

How is it theory crafting? The 2 points I've essencially made will happen throughout the whole game. it's not theory, it's how it works. Merchants will never buy everything and carry weights will prevent you from carrying all the loot you find unless you stop to go sell it/stash it.

The point is that how you think it will affect later game, post SGS, is theory crafting, since you never experienced it yourself. You only base it on your early impressions and comments of other posters, which is 2nd hand experience.

[Elhazzared]

As I said, later on the problem will be reduced because there are more merchants available. I did say that. While I'm not there, I don't think it is rocket science to say that more merchants = selling more things. Not being able to carry everything. This is again not theory crafting. The further ahead you get on the game the bigger the maps tend to be. For example, I may not have gone to the junkyard since since the new system was implemented, but I know for example that the SGS is not a big place to loot and you can't take everything in there in one go because of sledgehammers. Similarly, I remember just how big depot A is. The amount of loot there is enormous and I doubt that Styg decided to cut it to half size or half loot (even then it would still be more loot than the SGS).

Similarly, it doesn't takes rocket science to say that as more merchants become vailable, you'll lose more time moving from merchant to merchant to sell things. You might increase how much you can sell by a bit, but then again you also increase the busy work of doing so without a good reason for it too.

So I am not wrong in what I'm saying.

You may like this system. It has more flaws than merits, in fact the only merit is being more realistic (even that is debatable). The previous method only had beneficts for the players. So it was less realistic, who cares if literaly everyone was having fun?! Still, just because you like the new system, it doesn't means that everything I said was incorrect.