Post your experiences with the new Dominating difficulty!

[Fenix]

Yeah, I just done Deport A yesterday, same feeling.
During a massive fight with mutants I used 2 Adrenalin Shots lol, it was so long.

[Tygrende]

Can you detect Death Stalkers with detection goggles, and Paranoia?

I am able to see their silhouettes when they are very close and initiate combat at 266 detection. Level 22, 14 PER and Paranoia, no detection goggles.

[Fenix]

So, I got rando encounter...
Three Ironhead Berserkers, with hammers, with Sprint, with Adrnalin Shot, with helaing hypo +150 hp, at map that open as table...
I don't know, what heavy armored characters can do with it...

Also, this fight show, that without good random roll you are as good as dead - if they initiate combat, one can run toward my char with Sprint and stop, or run and use Adrenalin and... you know right?
Also they have Yell, that shit lower my skill that much, I lose 15% chance to hit to 50+%, so you need to stay away from them, or freez them.
Though fight, if special effects from chem pistols don't proc.

[jubisloviu]

Just finished dominating on my chemical pistol character, the new chemical belt is godtier since in the end i was firing chemical pistols for 11AP, could be firing for 9 with supersoldier drug, but i choose to level some dodge early for escape artist and didn't found enough points for it on the end.
I really enjoyed the random encounters, new enemy placements and all the new stuff, in the end it made me feel like i was playing this game for the first time again since i never knew what to expect of the zones i was already used to.
The lunatic mall was the hardest part in dominating, DC was a breeze compared to that mall full of lunatics.
The only thing i really disliked was how heavy chemical ammo is, in DC i was contantly checking my ammo, avoiding fights and trying to finish it as quickly as possible because i was barely able to carry enough ammo for all the encounters, i spent a good chunk of my time on DC in the Labyrinth farming deep worms for their corrosive acid glands.

[destroyor]

The early test results for dodge/evasion on dominating aren't looking good. I'm wrong about dodge/evasion being viable as my energy pistol char might just had been very lucky. I don't think dodge/evasion is viable on dominating oddity mode as the early game will destroy you. I'm wondering if it's viable w/ the aid of jumping bean + high level gear + adrenaline + boxing gloves on XP mode but still very far from getting access to Core City.

[Altos]

I don't think dodge/evasion is viable on dominating oddity mode as the early game will destroy you. I'm wondering if it's viable w/ the aid of jumping bean + high level gear + adrenaline + boxing gloves on XP mode but still very far from getting access to Core City.

I don't know how you're defining a "dodge/evasion" build, but my own experiences with Dominating suggest that a lightly armored build is definitely viable, especially if you take Uncanny Dodge and Evasive Maneuvers. Yeah, if you're basing your entire build off of 0% Armor Penalty w/ R.R. or Leather Armor + Nimble, then you're going to get totally wrecked in the early game, but at Armor Penalty ≤ %50 with Dodge & Evasion, you can get through every fight without having to reload more than a few times. It is "Dominating" difficulty, after all -- it's meant to dominate you -- so a little save-scumming is to be expected. If you're talking about doing an Ironman run, then I don't expect you'll be able to win with anything other than a 10 CON sniper build, or something equally ridiculous. IDK, that's just a guess; I'm not insane enough to seriously test out builds for an Dominating Ironman run.

Presently, I'm still rocking the 3 CON SMG build that I mentioned when I started this thread, and as it is, I'm fairly confident that I can at least beat the game with it. As it is, I've finished everything in Junkyard, Camp Hathor, and Rail Crossing, and I'm working my way through Foundry & Core City as we speak. However, the build is far from reliable, and my overall success with it hinges on three main utilities:

1.) The ability to craft W2C bullets with 20 Chemistry. This is the crux on which the entire build rests. With how tanky everything is on Dominating (and the fact that you're fighting end-game enemies at level 7), it is absolutely necessary for me to be able to burst out an entire clip of W2C ammo every battle. Graphite is now more precious than gold. Sadly, without Mercantile, it is a rare commodity, indeed.

2.) Quick Tinkering & bear traps. If the W2C ammo doesn't make this build viable, the bear traps do. With 3 CON and only a Q100 Galvanic Overcoat, the ability to immobilize my opponents and then hide behind a corner has allowed me to survive fights where it's not 1v1 against a melee fighter (thanks, Uncanny Dodge). Death Stalkers are actually impossible for me to kill without Quick Tinkering, W2C, and molotovs. Also, on the note of Death Stalkers, I know that Dominating difficulty is supposed to be insane, Styg, but did you have to put seven of these f-ckers in lux-b4?? And don't even get me started on lux-a6x! Screw the Upper Caves!!

3.) Molotovs. Especially when fighting the Rathound King, these guys were essential. Combined with Quick Tinkering and the ability to burst-fire 20+ rounds of W2C per turn, and I can take out almost any enemy in the game in 2 turns or less. I haven't finished the Kill the Beast quest yet, though, so the Bladelings may kill my build like they always do. Especially if the rumors I have heard about the new waves are true.

So yeah, my 3/10/7/3/7/3/7 SMG build is viable when paired with constant W2C bullet-crafting, Quick Tinkering, and Molotovs. 100+ Stealth is helping out a lot, too. Lunatics are still a pain in the ass, but that's not really new. Burrowers are a joke, though, which is not something I'm used to. I never thought that I would be able to burst down a Burrower Warrior in one turn at level 11. That was a humbling experience -- for the burrowers!

All in all, my experiences would seem to suggest that a dodge & evasion build @ ≤ 50% Armor Penalty is actually viable (at least on an SMG gunner with Quick Tinkering).

[destroyor]

Ok first some definition:
Dodge/Evasion build - a build with max dodge and evasion, low armor penalty (preferably 0% w/ Nimble) and high AGI
Viable dodge/evasion build - able to survive most encounter out in the open using dodge and evasion, without resorting to other tricks like quick tinkering + bear trap + line of sight abuse. Obviously dodge/evasion does nothing to psi but you should be able to dodge/evade aim shots, burst and shock bolt w/ confidence.

Early results:
Tested using a psi monk setup, 10 AGI, max dodge/evasion, 0 armor penalty w/ nimble (15% dodge/evasion bonus, hereafter abbreviated to 0APWN), cave hopper leather armor and later cave hopper tabi as well.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMMCgkDAwYAMADCh8KHwodvAAAAGXZvDDtvAC0jAAAAK2IkMTAgE0cHPEJLEgYq
Note there are couple non-optimize choices here for the purpose of testing dodge/evasion.

- 45 (52 ok) effective dodge still getting hit by rathound, so this mean as an 0APWN AGI 10 char you need to be level 5 with max dodge/evasion in order to be immune to the weakest creature in the game. This is insane! Remember a lot of dodge/evasion build are 6 ~ 8 AGI w/ around 10 ~ 15% armor penalty.

- 67 effective evasion still getting gun down by GMS raiders in caves (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10), can't reliably evade aimed shot/burst/regular gun fire.

- 67 effective dodge not even enough to dodge Grover's bare fist (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10)

- 87 dodge not enough to dodge siphoner (level 10, 0APWN AGI 11)

Remember some builds like psi monk were designed to be out in the open relying on a strong alpha strike to take out most of the enemies and dodge/evade incoming attacks from the few remaining enemies. This used to be viable on ver 1.0.2 hard but seems to consistently fail on ver 1.0.3 dominating. I'm still trying to see if you can get around this by a) powerlevel to level 25 early and dodge/evade most of the game by superior level and b) high level gears such as infused leather, boxing gloves and c) medicine like jumping beans, adrenaline.

Again I must stress I'm testing the best case scenario here (0APWN, AGI 10, max dodge/evasion) which is not realistic for most builds. You can't powerlevel in oddity mode which is why I said dodge/evasion builds are no longer viable for dominating oddity mode. Remember we are pumping a total of 270 skill points and if you are still resorting to quick tinkering, bear traps and LOS abuse then something is seriously wrong. I'm reserving judgement on classic mode mid ~ late game but I must say things aren't looking good right now.

TL:DR - this is an in-depth game mechanic discussion gear towards obsessive players like myself so no TL:DR version available.

[Twiglard]

I just changed my Biocorp iShield 7S for the Biocorp iShield 7X. It also comes with a signed photograph of Wit Nosek, but the writing isn't too legible.

The old one:



The new one:



I must say it's worth the 70% price increase, though it should come with batteries included! I also heard that they have better models at the Devil Institute.

- 45 (52 ok) effective dodge still getting hit by rathound, so this mean as an 0APWN AGI 10 char you need to be level 5 with max dodge/evasion in order to be immune to the weakest creature in the game. This is insane! Remember a lot of dodge/evasion build are 6 ~ 8 AGI w/ around 10 ~ 15% armor penalty.

- 67 effective evasion still getting gun down by GMS raiders in caves (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10), can't reliably evade aimed shot/burst/regular gun fire.

- 67 effective dodge not even enough to dodge Grover's bare fist (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10)

- 87 dodge not enough to dodge siphoner (level 10, 0APWN AGI 11)

I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.

How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken),
better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.

I think rathounds aren't representative in general since Alphas got buffed to hell and back on Dominating. Before they were cakewalk, now two packs before GMS entrance required some serious thinking for my characters, and one failed as result.

Can you explain what is "alpha strike"?

Yeah, I just done Deport A yesterday, same feeling.
During a massive fight with mutants I used 2 Adrenalin Shots lol, it was so long.

With mk4 frag grenades it's pretty easy. Some encounters got buffed but there's also a ton with barely changed difficulty.

[Altos]

Ok first some definition:
Dodge/Evasion build - a build with max dodge and evasion, low armor penalty (preferably 0% w/ Nimble) and high AGI
Viable dodge/evasion build - able to survive most encounter out in the open using dodge and evasion, without resorting to other tricks like quick tinkering + bear trap + line of sight abuse. Obviously dodge/evasion does nothing to psi but you should be able to dodge/evade aim shots, burst and shock bolt w/ confidence.

Gotcha. Yeah, with those definitions, it does not seem like one is able to achieve a "viable dodge/evasion build" on Dominating difficulty, at least not without significant power-leveling on Classic.

However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power. I do not consider the usage of either feat to be "cheating" in any way, as they are included within the game and intended for use by Dodge & Evasion builds.

It may not be possible for a 52 effective dodge character to completely avoid every single attack from a rathound on Dominating, but with Uncanny Dodge, they most certainly can dodge everything that gets thrown at them. At 52 effective Dodge, you can dodge 3 melee attacks in a row for one turn, guaranteed. At 135 effective Dodge, the bonus becomes 6 guaranteed dodges for one turn. Similarly, an AGI 10 character with Sprint (for a total of 75 movement points), will get a bonus of 225 Evasion from Evasive Maneuvers for one turn. Granted, most battles are unlikely to last for just one turn, but you cannot deny that these bonuses provide significant survivability for any character.

So I would encourage you to continue your testing with an Uncanny Dodge / Evasive Maneuvers character, and determine the "true viability" from there. I'm doing the same with my own character, but my SMG build only allows for 8 AGI, and I'm not bothering with Nimble or 0% Armor Penalty. And, of course, I have some other tricks up my sleeve.

I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.

How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken), better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.

Yeah, I have to agree with Twiglard here. Some more statistics would be helpful in providing a more representative outlook on the viability of Dodge & Evasion builds on Dominating difficulty.

[destroyor]

Wall of text warning.

*snip

I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.

How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken),
better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.

I think rathounds aren't representative in general since Alphas got buffed to hell and back on Dominating. Before they were cakewalk, now two packs before GMS entrance required some serious thinking for my characters, and one failed as result.

Can you explain what is "alpha strike"?

*snip

Preface: the purpose of my test is to check the return of investment of dodge/evasion, while comparing the opportunity cost of the required 270 skill points. I'm also trying to see if it's possible to keep enemies' accuracy down to 10% most of the game in ver 1.0.3 dominating.

1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.

2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.

3) I was specifically talking about the weakest creature in game - rathound, and it's a bit ridiculous how high you need in order to be immune to them. Dodging rathound alpha is a separate problem. Good luck dodging alpha during early game. (spoiler: total failure)

4) Alpha strike is when you manually entering combat (usually from stealth) and completing your turn of combat. If you can kill everyone in one turn that means combat is over before your enemies have a chance to act.
Taken to the extreme that would be Blitz + adrenaline + base AP = 90 AP, mix in fatal throw (cost 11AP @17 DEX, return 18AP) = 97 AP total.

*snip

Gotcha. Yeah, with those definitions, it does not seem like one is able to achieve a "viable dodge/evasion build" on Dominating difficulty, at least not without significant power-leveling on Classic.

However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power. I do not consider the usage of either feat to be "cheating" in any way, as they are included within the game and intended for use by Dodge & Evasion builds.

It may not be possible for a 52 effective dodge character to completely avoid every single attack from a rathound on Dominating, but with Uncanny Dodge, they most certainly can dodge everything that gets thrown at them. At 52 effective Dodge, you can dodge 3 melee attacks in a row for one turn, guaranteed. At 135 effective Dodge, the bonus becomes 6 guaranteed dodges for one turn. Similarly, an AGI 10 character with Sprint (for a total of 75 movement points), will get a bonus of 225 Evasion from Evasive Maneuvers for one turn. Granted, most battles are unlikely to last for just one turn, but you cannot deny that these bonuses provide significant survivability for any character.

So I would encourage you to continue your testing with an Uncanny Dodge / Evasive Maneuvers character, and determine the "true viability" from there. I'm doing the same with my own character, but my SMG build only allows for 8 AGI, and I'm not bothering with Nimble or 0% Armor Penalty. And, of course, I have some other tricks up my sleeve.

I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.

How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken), better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.

Yeah, I have to agree with Twiglard here. Some more statistics would be helpful in providing a more representative outlook on the viability of Dodge & Evasion builds on Dominating difficulty.

I disagree w/ the statement: "However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power.". In the past (pre ver 1.0.3) many dodge/evasion builds are without uncanny dodge/sprint/evasive maneuvers (see my guide, character build section - check the last updated date). This is either because there are far better alternative and/or just simply can't afford the feat slot. These builds traded skill point in order to save ability points and/or feat slot, with the prime example being crossbow builds. I would argue uncanny dodge + evasive maneuvers greatly enhance dodge/evasion but are not truly the core of d/e builds. You simply cannot activate uncanny dodge when you are ambushed by a lurker (and lost initiative check) assassin. Evasive maneuvers will only save you from aimed shot/shock bolt/burst for one turn while realistically d/e builds need to be safe from those threats for more than one turns. In addition, if you have enough MP for evasive maneuvers/sprint to be effective it's usually far better to run away (outside enemies' weapon optimal range) and/or break line of sight. This is not ... the desired tactics for some special melee build such as a crit brawler/psi monk.

In any case I will continue on w/o uncanny dodge/evasive maneuvers/sprint as they are outside the purview of my test. I'm also testing d/e to see if running around under 30% health full time in order to trigger survival instinct is still viable. Right now the initial results aren't promising as the return of investment in d/e are poor. With the latest changes to mercantile (getting higher crafting component which directly impact your damage, survivability and utilities) it's probably better to take those skill points away from d/e and pump them into mercantile + crafting skills such as chemistry for high level grenades/biology for medicines. I'm still reserving judgement on classic mode mid ~ late game.

[Altos]

[...]

1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.

2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.

[...]

In the past (pre ver 1.0.3) many dodge/evasion builds are without uncanny dodge/sprint/evasive maneuvers [...]. This is either because there are far better alternative and/or just simply can't afford the feat slot. These builds traded skill point in order to save ability points and/or feat slot, with the prime example being crossbow builds. I would argue uncanny dodge + evasive maneuvers greatly enhance dodge/evasion but are not truly the core of d/e builds. You simply cannot activate uncanny dodge when you are ambushed by a lurker (and lost initiative check) assassin. Evasive maneuvers will only save you from aimed shot/shock bolt/burst for one turn while realistically d/e builds need to be safe from those threats for more than one turns. In addition, if you have enough MP for evasive maneuvers/sprint to be effective it's usually far better to run away (outside enemies' weapon optimal range) and/or break line of sight. This is not ... the desired tactics for some special melee build such as a crit brawler/psi monk.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your goal, so far as I can understand it from these quotations, is to see if it is possible -- on Dominating difficulty, mind you -- to develop a Dodge & Evasion build that can push most enemies' chance to hit below 50% (preferably 10%, if not full immunity) by the time that the player commonly encounters them (e.g. a level 5 character dodging rathounds and burrowers in the early-game) without use of Uncanny Dodge & Evasive Maneuvers. Correct? This is what you are testing the viability of?

Doesn't that sound a little... unrealistic? This is the hardest difficulty in the game, mind you. It's called "DOMINATING," in all caps, for a reason. There's even a disclaimer on it that says "We do not guarantee that the game can be completed in this mode so choose at your own peril." It shouldn't be a cake-walk.

Now, I understand wanting to conserve feat slots. Believe me; I've played a crossbow-user and a psi-monk. But... shouldn't the ability to avoid practically all attacks still warrant use over something like Expertise or Recklessness? IDK, call me crazy, but when you're setting your build up around alpha-striking enemies to death within the first round, anyway, 1-turn immunity feats still sound pretty good.

Yeah, putting Uncanny Dodge and Evasive Maneuvers aside, you're not going to be able to dodge more than half of the attacks that get thrown at you, but considering that you're playing on the hardest difficulty, is that really so lamentable? A 50% hit-ratio may not be "good enough" if you can only take a couple of hits before dying, but it's better than a 95% hit-ratio, and I think that difference alone still warrants the use of Dodge & Evasion on Dominating difficulty.

Regardless, I suppose that I am really just squabbling over your use of the word "viable," at this point. After all, wouldn't it be a bad thing if Dominating wasn't a challenge, no matter how hard you try to mitigate it? Remember, Styg only put this difficulty in for crazy idiots like us that feel compelled to try it out even if it destroys us.

And let me state that I mean no hostility towards you at all, destroyor. Truthfully, you are a much better Underrail player than I. I just enjoy debating with you.

You do whatever makes you happiest, my friend.

[destroyor]

Correct me if I am wrong, but your goal, so far as I can understand it from these quotations, is to see if it is possible -- on Dominating difficulty, mind you -- to develop a Dodge & Evasion build that can push most enemies' chance to hit below 50% (preferably 10%, if not full immunity) by the time that the player commonly encounters them (e.g. a level 5 character dodging rathounds and burrowers in the early-game) without use of Uncanny Dodge & Evasive Maneuvers. Correct? This is what you are testing the viability of?

Doesn't that sound a little... unrealistic? This is the hardest difficulty in the game, mind you. It's called "DOMINATING," in all caps, for a reason. There's even a disclaimer on it that says "We do not guarantee that the game can be completed in this mode so choose at your own peril." It shouldn't be a cake-walk.

Yes on the surface the goal might seems overly ambitious, but the increased amount of enemies on dominating also means it's possible to power level. By cherry picking fights and easy quests I was able to reach level 14 beating depot A and level 17 just by exploring core city killing thugs and mutants. Combine max level w/ jumping beans, adrenaline, infused leather gear + boxing gloves it *might* be possible to reach my goal for everything pre-Tchortist. We'll see.  

[Twiglard]

1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.

2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.

1) I played oddity mode the first time. It doesn't work for me. Going around Underrail is fun in itself, I don't wanna be discouraged by overused oddity types etc. That XP mode is OP is another matter.

2) Maybe all enemies got a flat bonus to accuracy? Then you'd need a flat amount of Evasion to make it even.

[destroyor]

All enemies in dominating received a 30% skill increase - meaning more damage + accuracy.

[Sykar]

Correct me if I am wrong, but your goal, so far as I can understand it from these quotations, is to see if it is possible -- on Dominating difficulty, mind you -- to develop a Dodge & Evasion build that can push most enemies' chance to hit below 50% (preferably 10%, if not full immunity) by the time that the player commonly encounters them (e.g. a level 5 character dodging rathounds and burrowers in the early-game) without use of Uncanny Dodge & Evasive Maneuvers. Correct? This is what you are testing the viability of?

Doesn't that sound a little... unrealistic? This is the hardest difficulty in the game, mind you. It's called "DOMINATING," in all caps, for a reason. There's even a disclaimer on it that says "We do not guarantee that the game can be completed in this mode so choose at your own peril." It shouldn't be a cake-walk.

That must be Classic XP though, not Oddity.

Yes on the surface the goal might seems overly ambitious, but the increased amount of enemies on dominating also means it's possible to power level. By cherry picking fights and easy quests I was able to reach level 14 beating depot A and level 17 just by exploring core city killing thugs and mutants. Combine max level w/ jumping beans, adrenaline, infused leather gear + boxing gloves it *might* be possible to reach my goal for everything pre-Tchortist. We'll see.