Sniper sidearm (why pistols are underrated)

[Vokial]

Ok, I began typing this on another topic about something else, and since I don't plan to derail it, while also not prefer to loose these thoughts, I present it on a separate thread here. Don't know how popular snipers are at the moment, but I know firearms are not and just wanted to share my experience with them.



Enemies with high DT is just one of the reasons why I prefer firearm pistols to be paired as sidearms with sniper rifles instead of SMG's or shotguns. When you need to deliver big hits against high DT you need huge caliber single shots - what are the weapons that share this aspect? Sniper rifle and a Hammerer. For anything that manages to reach close proximity, a Kneecap Shot or Rapid Fire from a nice .44 is simply a better choice. With damage possibly doubled due to the vicious combination of a 150q Smart module and goggles (latter basically equals to 6 shots with .44 rounds compared to the unconditioned 5 bullets from a caliber of 8.6 or likely below) and a +11% more chance to crit that is additionally 30% more deadly due to Steadfast Aim and Sharpshooter. And a crit with a Kneecap Shot is extra sweet due to the now astronomical bleed. These two special attacks gain benefit from high calibers and unlike bursts, they do not fire in a cone but each bullet is aimed at the same enemy - making them more reliable when firing on single targets (like an unattended melee that's about to get close).
Also snipers doesn't get much from high dexterity, so raising DEX for the sake of SMG's means spreading stat points too widely is not smart. 44's don't benefit nearly as much from that stat either, so with a Rapid Reloader and Gunslinger, it doesn't worth to increase DEX above 8. That'll be enough to perform a Kneecap Shot for 20 AP or a Rapid Fire for 30. Enjoy your free additional stat points - you're welcome.

That being said, compared to SMG's, even shotguns can prove to be a better choice, but I'm in favor of pistols, them being a lot more... aesthetically side arm-like. An example of this is them providing +7 Initiative. Now that's utility. They can also Rapid Fire AoE with the pistol-only Explosive rounds (always a crowd pleaser), having the two mentioned special attacks not just Kneecap Shot, with the fact that Sharpshooter applies on both of our guns. They just get along well.
And that's why a lot of people missunderstand pistols. Unlike AR's, they are not quite enough for everything the game throws at you, but perhaps they are not meant to be employed like that. Then again, the same applies for the sniper rifle too. It's a specific weapon for a particular situation. Every now and then, you just need something to go along with it. But pair these two together, see how well they complete each other and you'll have a match made in heaven.

[nosaM]

I have used 44 pistols, the main problem with them is that they are consistently inconsistent. Crits and explosive rounds make this less of a problem.

When RNG is on your side they become a very powerful weapon, and with high DEX investment you can clear rooms in single turns [on normal not sure about dominating] with an average crit damage of 150-400 around level 20 and execute crits doing over a 1000 damage. [more with smart goggles] As a weapon they require a lot of investment to compare to other weapons. Also 44 pistols gain a lot of damage from investment in PER.

As said above they are inconsistent, and this usually leads to a lot frustration mostly in the early game like dealing 14 damage crits.

[harperfan7]

Tygrende has similar views, and I agree as well.  Here's his sniper build with suggestions for gear.  I think I'd probably go for a rapid smart pistol myself, though, but I haven't actually played a gunner like this.

[Tygrende]

I've been saying that pistols are underrated as a sniper's sidearm since forever, but for somewhat different reasons.

The way I play my sniper builds, the sidearm is only ever used to provide utility and when the sniper rifle cannot be used effectively. The biggest and argueably only selling point of SMGs and shotguns over pistols is the pure DPS advantage, which I do not much care for, since it's the rifle that is supposed to be the actual damage dealer 99% of the time. Pistols on the other hand provide +7 initiative with Gunslinger, which is great for me because I like stacking high initiative on not-so-tanky builds in case the stealth approach failed or isn't possible (arena fights, fights started via dialog, etc.). Both SMGs and pistols can use Kneecap Shot, which is a great ability for snipers to have, but pistols have better range with less precision drop over distance and a Neo Luger frame which has an inherent 5% precision bonus. I only care about Kneecap Shot hitting to slow the enemy down, which pistols will do much more reliably than SMGs will thanks to that precision advantage, especially against high evasion enemies like, say, death stalkers. This is why you will see me recommending a laser sight Neo Luger in the picture above, to maximize that precision bonus. Even the DPS gap between SMGs/Shotguns is smaller than it may look, thanks to Sharpshooter benefiting the latter but not the former. Add rapid fire and you get adequate DPS from pistols, the increase from other options really doesn't make up for initiative loss and less reliable/no kneecap shot for me.

Shotguns are immediately disqualified from being a good sniper sidearm if you ask me, because they have a STR requirement, the same goes for ARs. The main point of a sidearm for a sniper is to have something that can be used when the sniper rifle can't. One of the most common situations where the sniper rifle cannot be used is getting hit with crippling strike, which reduces STR by 2 per stack. Having your STR 2 points below the weapon requirement will completly cripple your precision, usually all the way to the minimum 10% chance to hit. There's no shortage of enemies that use this ability, from various knife-wielding enemies through crabs to Carnifex. One stack you can somewhat deal with by using adrenaline to gain that 2 STR back for 3 turns, but that's only if you can end the fight in those 3 turns. If you can't, or you have 2 or more stacks, having 2 weapons that you pretty much cannot hit anything with is typically a death sentence. The fact that neither shotguns nor ARs can use Kneecap Shot doesn't help, either.

[Vokial]

It's nice. I know Hammerers can sometimes have pretty random numbers in damage, and I admit, I rolled with a Rapid 9mm Neo Luger LS a lot before level 20 and loved how reliable it was. Constant damage and precision. Tried a 9mm Falchion too for the +5% critical chance but not that long to be able to safely decide which was better because I finally found a nice frame to .44 Hammerer, the damage jumped through the roof so much, I got hooked on it. The thing is, this weapon basically have the same minimal damage of other 9mm pistols of the same quality, but the upper damage has such a substantial jump with the 44's almost to the level of sniper rifles. And that makes a difference more times than not. It's a waste to use it against random critters, it's not made to fire regular shots like a Falchion. But performs best when doing special attacks. My Rapid Neo Luger LS was great to precisely hit kneecaps when all that mattered is to land the shot and slow the enemy from the further the better. With the .44's bigger damage, the huge bleed made the difference.



Anycase, here's my build:



Just look at those nice, round, even numbers with the skills. It's now tailored for playthroughs on higher difficulty with Mercantile added aside Pickpocket, so beside stealing various stuff and oddities, we're granted with more financial stability and access to higher materials. Hacking, Lockpicking and Traps can be raised up to 125-130 with further equipment and food. Can independently craft consumables up to Bullheads and mk IV Frag Grenades, for end-game equipment he does rely on Hypercerebrix or/and a bench for a maximum of 135/155 points in the skills related. Blindsiding, while it comes in to play 99% of the fights and to compensate having the relatively low 13 PER, seeing the above build made me think whether it would be better to switch it for Strafe as it completely negates the penalty of the Spearhead and that would be excellent in cornerfights wielding that rifle.
Wearing Smart Goggles by default, but carry one that's motion tracking with night vision. Being a glass-build with 3 CON, I maxed Evasion for +50% blast damage resistance and wearing a Sturdy Tactical Vest for bullet protection with fully specialised in Ballistics. I am now comfortable in using black cloth in both armor and Tabi boots for more stealth and keeping the penalty low.

Having these values in such high priority and invested so many skill points into them, I went with 8 Agility. The MP and Initiative bonus is nice, but mainly I wanted the build to have it's skills reflected in it's stats as much as possible with the exclusion of still dipping into psi despite having the lowest will. However one can totally just drop AGI to 3, raise PER to 18, drop Blindsiding to take Trigger Happy for the now 35 Initiative and be as deadly as possible. For me it would be troubling to see a sniper sneaking around constantly, but having the lowest agility for the sake of min-maxing, but I completely understand if others might go for that especially on dominating.



EDIT:
Tygrende, I now see your post and it made a part of mine obsolete. It was nice to read it and see how somebody came to the same conclusion, and you pointing out why weapons having higher strength requirement being no good is definetly a valid argument that did not came to my mind yet. This build worked well in Normal, but I abandoned it at level 24 to try Dominating for the first time with it. So any insight is highly appreciated.

[Tygrende]

It's a waste to use it against random critters, it's not made to fire regular shots like a Falchion. But performs best when doing special attacks.

That's actually a bad thing in the context of being a sidearm for a sniper build. Hammerers, especially .44 ones, perform the best when using Aimed Shot to capitalize on the crit damage. Thing is, Aimed Shot is the bread and butter ability of sniper rifles already, so now you have two weapons competing for being used with it. It's better to save your Aimed Shots for the rifle and go with a secondary that doesn't need it that much. That said, later on, when you start stacking your crit chance, hammerers can still be a decent choice. I beat the game on DOMINATING with the build harperfan posted, by the way.

[Vokial]

I use Hammerer mostly with Rapid Fire and Kneecap Shot to make the most out of those abilities and mainly against close encounters. It also benefits the most from Steadfast Aim out of all kinds of pistols (11%), a feat I might as well take if my STR already have to be 5. Aimed Shot is preferable with the rifle yes, as it also contributes in decreasing it's cooldown. Hammerer was very useful against those Lunatic and Ironhead camps in the upper areas where I first focused on enemies with crossbows and grenades.
Yep, your's a nice build. Made me really think about including Strafe in mine. There are differences, for example I like having 8 in DEX no more no less here, and to specialize in Psycho-Temporal Acc. for the additional third shot with the Spearhead.

[Tygrende]

Strafe is extremaly good for sniper rifles, I wouldn't make a sniper build without it. I'd pick it earlier if I was to play again, like in this non-psi version:

[TheAverageGortsby]

Why overinvest so much in Hacking, Lockpicking, and Persuasion?  Just for ease of play so you don't have to gear swap to hit the thresholds?

[Vokial]

Allright, Strafe sounds better the more I think about it. I know there were situations where I direly felt the need for it, I'll see if I'll end up missing Blindsiding as much or not. It's also mobility related so at least as fitting as the one I replace it with. Gonna go for Strafe this time.

I'm also interested in seeing how much difference Mercantile makes. I remember suffering from low quality wares, but since I had 6 INT in my previous attempt, I was not able to squeeze it in. Decided on it instead of Persuasion, upon realizing that it is governed by INT instead of WIL and being able to save Buzzer with another peaceful method.

[Tygrende]

Why overinvest so much in Hacking, Lockpicking, and Persuasion?  Just for ease of play so you don't have to gear swap to hit the thresholds?

Persuasion is just for fun, I like having it and wasn't sure what the highest check in Expedition was at the time. Both hacking and lockpicking are high enough to open absolutely everything in the game and hack IRIS. I may have forgotten to include the huxkey/jackknife in the builder. The build is not starved for points at all, it's not that important. Those skills are anything but set in stone, it all depends on whether I find some really high quality components that would require more investment in a particular crafting skill, if I want open a particular thing at the time, etc.

I'll see if I'll end up missing Blindsiding as much or not.

Snipers really don't need it. Snipe doesn't need a 15% damage increase, the Aimed Shot you will use right after coming out of stealth doesn't need it either, both are overwhelmingly likely to overkill anyways or just not make a difference. It's almost a wasted feat.

I'm also interested in seeing how much difference Mercantile makes.

It's a nice thing to have, can potentially get you best quality components towards the end of the game. That and nice jet skis, some drugs, etc.

Also, what was your armor of choice?

Tac vest until you get an energy shield. Maybe siphoner/mutant dog leather just for Depot A. After you get an energy shield, either keep using a tac vest with a laminated panel and regen vest, or a sturdy riot gear with reinforced panel if you want better anti-melee protection, especially if you want to have a chance of not being killed by a death stalker in 1 turn. After you do the Beast and get high quality supersteel, upgrade to infused leather pig armor with high density padding. Crazy good mech DR, especially vs. melee, with crazy high HP bonus for sufficently light armor penalty.

[Vokial]

Geezus, that does seems nice, especially with low CON.
Thank you for the insights, getting these infos from different viewpoints, made me consider new options.

Aesthetically, I do like Tactical Vests the most, and the anti-bullet specialization is something I plan to hold on to. I know this will bring me hard times against crawlers and melee enemies in general (which is a thing in the DLC), but I stick by them. Settling on a Sturdy version for it's simpleness. I realized, that I might get more use of this kind of armor than a Regenerative one as if it still don't kick in on me being 71% or above HP, then with my low HP pool, the next hit might bring be below 50% easily. But the kind of Riot Gear you mentioned made out of a Biohazard carrier vest combined with the my Ballistics feat would be a nice piece specifically against crawlers. In theory. Not like there would be the luxury of carrying around an armor against a certain type of enemy, but most cases they find me first so "tanking" them is something that might happen despite if I'm prepared for it or not.

On a different topic - following on the idea of what are the roles of main and sidearms with a sniper, I thought on how I can alter my build so it will reflect this more taking it into extremities. Just for the sake of theory crafting. And that led me to the following:
What if I completely abandon the idea of dealing relevant damage with the pistol and purely focus on using it for reasons of utility. That would mean me dropping Steadfast Aim and Rapid Shot (which is purely an offensive skill), while taking Trigger Happy for a whopping 40 initiative. With those two feats now gone, it makes less sense in using Hammerers, so might even go with a Silent Neo Luger LS instead. Solely for precisely slowing enemies and to boost our Initiative.
As for our rifle, the approach is now the exact opposite. Maybe 3 shots from a move and shoot penalty free Spearhead still ends up remaining superior overall and muh more easy to handle, but this is just food for thought here. We can ditch the Spearhead for a Rapid Smart Corsair 12.7mm with AA scope and boost the whole thing with Gun Nut (which benefits Corsairs the most). With it's much higher move and shoot penalty, Strafe would no longer make a difference and can be switched for further damage overkill with Blindsiding. Specializing in Psy-Temp-Acc. would make us fire this monster twice in a turn for it's cost of 36 AP per shot. Contaminated rounds seem so good, although I never used them yet. It would look like something like this.



...actually, since there's no more Spearhead thus no Strafe, we could have 3 AGI for 18 PER for maximizing Aimed Shot damage even more.

[harperfan7]

Yeah, it's a shame stealthy leather looks so lame.  A biohazard vest won't do a damn thing against crawlers, since their bio damage is poison, which bypasses resistances.  A regen vest is much better against them (aside from being 1hko'd) because its healing isn't affected by hyperallergenic.

[Tygrende]

As for our rifle, the approach is the exact opposite. We can ditch the Spearhead for a Rapid Smart Corsair 12.7mm with AA scope

Sorry, but that's a terrible idea, unless you are trying to handicap yourself to make the game A LOT harder. The ability to shoot twice with spearhead with base 50 AP and 3 or even 4 times with bonus AP is an overwhelming advantage compared to just once or twice with other sniper rifles. Especially on DOMINATING, which throws really big swarms of enemies at you. Smart A-A spearhead can easily 1-shot almost everything in the game, with the exception of only a few boss enemies on DOMINATING, so you will be essentialy cutting the amount of enemies killed each turn in half. And there will be a lot of them on DOMINATING. Really, a lot.

and boost the whole thing with Gun Nut (which benefits Corsairs the most).

Gun Nut is a pretty bad feat in general. The DPS increase is minimal and unreliable due to only increasing the upper damage range. It's an especially bad feat for sniper rifles, since they are not about sustained DPS, they are about reliable 1-shots. Increasing the upper damage range won't make them more reliable in any meaningful way since the lowest possible damage will stay the same.

With it's much higher move and shoot penalty, Strafe would no longer make a difference and can be switched for further damage overkill with Blindsiding.

But why would you want even more overkill? That's investing into wasted damage that doesn't benefit you at all. The only way it could benefit you is if you wanted to kill all DOMINATING bosses in 1 shot, but that's hardly worth giving up the ability to shoot twice which is much more important 99% of the time. Or if you wanted to see big numbers jst for the sake of it, I guess, but it won't make the actual game any easier.

Contaminated rounds seem so good, although I never used them yet.

They're rather bad, actually. 20-60 bonus damage is nothing for a weapon that reaches into thousands and only shoots once per turn. The cloud of toxic gas is also not much help, since you will 1-shoting everything anyways. Contaminated rounds would work much better with any gun OTHER than sniper rifles.

[Tygrende]

As for our rifle, the approach is the exact opposite. We can ditch the Spearhead for a Rapid Smart Corsair 12.7mm with AA scope

Sorry, but that's a terrible idea, unless you are trying to handicap yourself to make the game A LOT harder. The ability to shoot twice with spearhead with base 50 AP and 3 or even 4 times with bonus AP is an overwhelming advantage compared to just once or twice with other sniper rifles. Especially on DOMINATING, which throws really big swarms of enemies at you. Smart A-A spearhead can easily 1-shot almost everything in the game, with the exception of only a few boss enemies on DOMINATING, so you will be essentialy cutting the amount of enemies killed each turn in half. And there will be a lot of them on DOMINATING. Really, a lot.

and boost the whole thing with Gun Nut (which benefits Corsairs the most).

Gun Nut is a pretty bad feat in general. The DPS increase is minimal and unreliable due to only increasing the upper damage range. It's an especially bad feat for sniper rifles, since they are not about sustained DPS, they are about reliable 1-shots. Increasing the upper damage range won't make them more reliable in any meaningful way since the lowest possible damage will stay the same.

With it's much higher move and shoot penalty, Strafe would no longer make a difference and can be switched for further damage overkill with Blindsiding.

But why would you want even more overkill? That's investing into wasted damage that doesn't benefit you at all. The only way it could benefit you is if you wanted to kill all DOMINATING bosses in 1 shot, but that's hardly worth giving up the ability to shoot twice which is much more important 99% of the time. Or if you wanted to see big numbers just for the sake of it, I guess, but it won't make the actual game any easier.

Contaminated rounds seem so good, although I never used them yet.

They're rather bad, actually. 20-60 bonus damage is nothing for a weapon that reaches into thousands and only shoots once per turn. The cloud of toxic gas is also not much help, since you will 1-shoting everything anyways. Contaminated rounds would work much better with any gun OTHER than sniper rifles.