Author Topic: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question  (Read 5720 times)

Street Cutter

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2020, 07:36:28 pm »
I've played three kinds of thought-control melee builds through three playthroughs of varying difficulty.

I have preferred the most recent iteration of PSI on this knife build the most.

Sykar

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2020, 02:09:35 pm »
So Styg when will you address the niche PSI abilities problems? You know the abilities you hardly used before and now became completely useless because the opportunity cost due to slots became far too high?

Copied from a post by Destroyor:
Quote
However with the max 8 slots limit, a lot of psi abilities will never get use now.

- Psi-cognitive Interruption, great for npc, almost useless for player. It was maybe useful for taken one psi enemy out before the change (X: doubt) but now the opportunity cost of having it taking up one valuable slot is way too great.

- Neurovisual Disruption: probably maybe useful for psi hybrid that want to snipe next turn, but even that is doubtful as you can just use 5 more AP to enter stealth mode and save up a valuable slot.

- Force Emission: not that great before the change but now absolutely garbage under new system.

- Disruptive Field: super useful before against ranged with its long range and low cost, now again the opportunity cost of having this take up a slot is too great, will never get use.

- Cryo-Shield: opportunity cost, never get use, you get the idea.

- Psycho-temporal Dilation: situationally useful before change, now oc, never get use. I'm a broken record

- Entropic Recurrence: hard to use before, now absolutely garbage under new system, oc, never get use. You know the drill.

- Temporary Rewind: same as above.

- Precognition: I occasionally turn this on before the change hope RNG goddess will smile upon me. Now? Please, oc, never get use, blah blah.

This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing

I think this bears repeating. Either these abilities get an update/upgrade or the opportunity cost to use them needs to be lessened.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 02:13:21 pm by Sykar »

haze1103

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2020, 02:32:02 pm »
I haven't gone through a full psi playthrough since the change yet, but it seems to me that every time your reserves go low, you have a free opportunity to tweak your slots a bit. Really, if you're having an encounter that could use a niche spell, the only cost to using it is a desaturated psi inhalant, regardless of your current reserves.
If you have a minimal investment in biology, that cost is just 3 Mindshrooms and a bunch of stuff you find in barrels.
In my opinion, that doesn't sound much worse than changing your equipment before a fight.

destroyor

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2020, 02:06:42 am »
So Styg when will you address the niche PSI abilities problems? You know the abilities you hardly used before and now became completely useless because the opportunity cost due to slots became far too high?

Copied from a post by Destroyor:
Quote
However with the max 8 slots limit, a lot of psi abilities will never get use now.

- Psi-cognitive Interruption, great for npc, almost useless for player. It was maybe useful for taken one psi enemy out before the change (X: doubt) but now the opportunity cost of having it taking up one valuable slot is way too great.

- Neurovisual Disruption: probably maybe useful for psi hybrid that want to snipe next turn, but even that is doubtful as you can just use 5 more AP to enter stealth mode and save up a valuable slot.

- Force Emission: not that great before the change but now absolutely garbage under new system.

- Disruptive Field: super useful before against ranged with its long range and low cost, now again the opportunity cost of having this take up a slot is too great, will never get use.

- Cryo-Shield: opportunity cost, never get use, you get the idea.

- Psycho-temporal Dilation: situationally useful before change, now oc, never get use. I'm a broken record

- Entropic Recurrence: hard to use before, now absolutely garbage under new system, oc, never get use. You know the drill.

- Temporary Rewind: same as above.

- Precognition: I occasionally turn this on before the change hope RNG goddess will smile upon me. Now? Please, oc, never get use, blah blah.

This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing

I think this bears repeating. Either these abilities get an update/upgrade or the opportunity cost to use them needs to be lessened.

Sorry to say Styg reject the premise already:
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=5931.msg31218#msg31218

I try to keep the busywork at a level where it doesn't become tedious (though, that is subjective, I guess).

I did not, nor do I plan to address every complaint, that would be futile. You are many and I'm just one. But, since I'm here already: I reject the premise that it does make "tons" of psi abilities useless. It makes SOME psi abilities that were already undesirable even less desirable. But that can be further addressed with improving upon those abilities, but it is also fine for some abilities to be very niche.

There will be no updates to Legacy branch. I will not maintain two code bases. It's not a perfect solution, I know, but it's some kind of compromise at least.

Better bet now would be to wait for infusion, promptly give feedback/wishlist for a psi system in infusion that *you* would want to play and hope for the best.

Sykar

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2020, 08:27:11 pm »
At the very least Styg could attach extra slots to a feat. Expanded PSI Capacitance would be a good choice for example, 1 extra slot base and up to 3 extra slots via specialization points. Could increase the intelligence requirements to 8 or even 10 for that. With that we had 12 slots which would equal 1 and 1/2 school powers. That would give us a semblance of the old general cave wizard. He could attach a 50% reduced cost to innervate PSI abilities attached to the Psycho-Neural Flexibility feat which can further be enhanced through specialization and open up innervation during combat. Currently losing everything makes innervating a no go during combat if it were possible.
I will never get why RPGs tend to mindlessly favor the hyper-specialization route where you spam the same shit over and over. It is boring and trite.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 08:01:54 am by Sykar »

bushwhacker2k

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2021, 05:41:44 am »
Wow, I picked an interesting time to come back after not having played for 4 years. So a big set of restrictions JUST got made for Psionics, eh?

I agree with the idea to add additional costs to Psi via reserves (as you could effectively blast a group of enemies into oblivion at no cost whatsoever, no equipment durability damage, no expended ammunition, no consumables, etc). It's only a mild inconvenience but it does add some upkeep to Psionicists that they lacked before.

The Innervation definitely seems more tenuous to me. Like others have noted, this makes more niche psi abilities likely to practically never see use.

One possible idea that came to me: instead of making it so you simply CAN'T use non-innervated psi abilities, just give them an additional psi point cost. That way, you'll primarily stick to your innervated abilities as they're more cost-effective, but you won't be totally locked out of using more niche abilities.

Maybe you could pick entire Psi Schools to innervate instead of specific Psi Abilities.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 08:13:19 am by bushwhacker2k »

cypherusuh

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2021, 05:40:59 pm »
Wow, I picked an interesting time to come back after not having played for 4 years. So a big set of restrictions JUST got made for Psionics, eh?
Tbh it's actually not as bad as some people said.
It just limits the Psi, from swiss knife with huge-ass machete attachment, to a specialised toolbox.
You can still play as hybrid, but you need to think which skills will help your build. For example, sniper metathermics still able to do their old strategy, with ThermoD or Cryogenic Induction's shatter with splash of Temporal Manipulation for LTI and PTC. It's still within a class idea. But now you can't suddenly shoot ice chunks or summon hose of fire or rewind and stop time.
But in this case, TM now requires you to max it out instead of just 40 point wonder, which is honestly very fair.

Tl;dr it ain't that bad, just plan your character and skills they need

Sykar

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Re: Dev Log #68: The Psi Question
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2021, 12:35:00 pm »
Wow, I picked an interesting time to come back after not having played for 4 years. So a big set of restrictions JUST got made for Psionics, eh?
Tbh it's actually not as bad as some people said.
It just limits the Psi, from swiss knife with huge-ass machete attachment, to a specialised toolbox.
You can still play as hybrid, but you need to think which skills will help your build. For example, sniper metathermics still able to do their old strategy, with ThermoD or Cryogenic Induction's shatter with splash of Temporal Manipulation for LTI and PTC. It's still within a class idea. But now you can't suddenly shoot ice chunks or summon hose of fire or rewind and stop time.
But in this case, TM now requires you to max it out instead of just 40 point wonder, which is honestly very fair.

Tl;dr it ain't that bad, just plan your character and skills they need

Hybrid is barely touched by this, only pure PSI has suffered significantly. AR was and still is superior to PSI. What many liked about PSI WAS the flexibility in approaches. Now? Most will spam the same 1-3 loadouts over and over. This update has made previously niche PSI abilities basically worthless.