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Quote from: ciox on March 22, 2025, 05:55:40 pm
Shield Bash for 0 AP every turn and with extra damage from all possible sources (including Combo if I recall correctly) was really quite good

Shield Bash counts as neither unarmed nor fist weapon attack and in fact interferes with Combo. I have never paid much attention to the interaction before but can now tell with certainty that any melee attack besides unarmed and fist weapon simply nullifies the existing Combo stacks, so doing something like punch - slice with a knife - punch will leave one with a single stack of Combo against the target. The same goes for Shield Bash.

From looking at your response I'm assuming that the build you played was DEX combat gloves with Shield Bash flavour (an unarmed build would not go for more than 12 DEX at absolute most and would prioritise STR instead so it has to have been combat gloves, right?..). The problem is that DEX gloves is perhaps the strongest melee build in the game and has no need whatever for Shield Bash, as pneumatic hammer does the same job more than once per turn and is infinitely better in comparison. Such build is straight up weaker with Shield Bash than without, as the bare minimum of feats required to make Shield Bash worthwhile could be spent on feats further improving ordinary attacks, which are arealdy far more effective to begin with. That's not to mention having to overinvest into STR as you say and being stuck with an armour type that serves the character very little purpose besides featuring a shield. What I played, on the other hand, was an unarmed build with only 9 DEX and the rest in STR, built primarily around Shield Bash... and yet even this build would have been much stronger without it! Having 5 of my feat slots occupied with Shield Bash and its synergies - Boarding Up, Shield Arm (lol), the feat itself, Nimble & Body Weight Training for Lightning Punches - forces me to give up on such feats as Critical Power, Recklessness, Improved/Expert Unarmed Combat, Bone Breaker (lmao even), Escape Artist, etc., as well as more crit-oriented Infused Rathound wife-beater overcoat. Basically, the difference is that the build you played was, as it appears to me, a perfectly self-sufficient ~~and pretty much broken~~ build that benefitted none from the inclusion of Shield Bash, while I played a build expressly centred on Shield Bash with the intent for it to be the build's focus and the main source of damage (yet with the way it is Shield Bash was only dealing 10% to 15% of overall damage at best, and even that solely because it was compromising the build's ability to deal damage by dint of its very existence).

Based on all of the above, I'm going to make a bold claim that your view of Shield Bash being decent as is is heavily skewed by the potency of the build it was included in, and which in the first place needed it little more than a sixth toe. My suggestions were made from the position of wishing for a build that could employ Shield Bash as primary means of damage, with ordinary attacks fulfilling a supporting role of stacking Boarding Up and re-enabling the main ~~hero of the story~~ means of offense, as opposed to bashing a single target to death and killing ten more conventionally. I would not say that Shield Bash is completely awful; unleashing a decently powerful sledgehammer swing once per turn per 0 AP isn't the worst thing in the universe (I mean it beats Spirit Poison). I have enjoyed bashing the shit out of many a foe quite a bit, yet nonetheless, for all the investment stipulated by Shield Bash, from feats and specs to equipment and high enough level, it simply doesn't do anywhere near enough to justify its inclusion, whether in a supporting or a primary role, besides want of flavour on a whim.

The build I used: https://underrail.info/build/?HggPBwQDAwYAWgDCoAAAwqAAZDIAfX1Lc8KCAAAAAAAAZCQxwoIgBsKowqoHS8KrT0VGGMKpwrN4beKhkALip4IB4qe-AeK2tQLitrYD4ra-Bt--
It was deliberately focused on very light unarmed attacks and crowd control. The obvious problem was armored enemies. Unarmed attacks could barely scratch armored enemies while Shield Bash actually let me damage and destroy them, which means it added a very large amount of value to the build.

Please don't get too high and mighty about how the game works, Styg patches "undesirable" interactions out of the game all the time, sometimes after they've been a part of the game for a very long time, and not all of the changes are mentioned in the patch notes. I clearly remember Fatal Throw used to work with acid flasks, that you could get Combo to synergize with Shield Bash, or that you could use Cut Throat to bypass stun immunity, that was gone just a couple months after I mentioned it on the codex.

If he's really patched out Shield Bash + Combo then maybe he could reconsider the decision since that was one of the more interesting things in the game's meta. It is about as likely to happen as him making Shield Bash a spammable ability instead of one locked by cooldowns anyway.

Bugs / Re: Shield Bash crits do not trigger Bone Breaker

« on: March 22, 2025, 10:03:43 pm »

HIGH PRIORITY

Bugs / Re: Mushroom Forest minor bugs

« on: March 22, 2025, 10:03:17 pm »

It really should be set so that you can't immobilize turrets (of all types) but you CAN freeze them with cryostasis/etc. No reason for it to be the way it is now.

Suggestions / Re: Shield Bash & Boarding Up Improvements

« on: March 22, 2025, 05:55:40 pm »

I'd be fine with some of these buffs, but I also played at least one build that was very strong with the current meta. Shield Bash for 0 AP every turn and with extra damage from all possible sources (including Combo if I recall correctly) was really quite good already. The main thing that I found irksome with the meta was Shield Arm requiring STR 8, absolutely nothing else in a DEX melee build like that needed STR above 6 (tungsten shield requirement) so going up to 8 just for Shield Arm is a bit eh.

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #10: Lockpicking and Hacking

« on: February 25, 2025, 08:17:23 pm »

I think the screenshot gives you a hint already, you must click to "attempt to set the pin", what happens afterwards is probably determined by skills.

What I'm worried about is lockpicking being as interesting as the new hacking. Perhaps the abilities of lockpick to do more stuff (like opening vent shafts in Underrail 1) could be expanded a little more, govern general interactions with mechanical stuff.

General / Re: Make a monster for Infusion

« on: February 17, 2025, 12:43:38 pm »

Add the Headmonster Biter again and make him canon https://youtu.be/TVnEI29QDmo?t=38

General / Re: Make a monster for Infusion

« on: February 07, 2025, 10:10:09 am »

Sounds cool. But why just spit fireballs? Make them fire something like blobs that explode with a delay to make it more interesting.

Also let them pick up and use fist weapons like Fallout 2 geckos.

Bugs / Re: I can't find Reflex Sight in all stores

« on: February 03, 2025, 04:58:43 pm »

It doesn't seem to show up at all at least on a game that was already started before the patch. ARs with scopes do have 10% move and shoot penalty like the patch says.

Builds / Re: All crafting / Leather glove / Non-psi Build

« on: January 12, 2025, 03:27:58 pm »

Looks pretty good, but I don't think you need INT to be higher than 6-7 or so even with a crafting focus, you don't use it for any feats, and for crafting requirements you can get a workbench or chems. You can probably use those points to make your starting DEX/AGI higher.
For feats Expertise may be useful if you're not sure what feats to get at later levels.
As for spec points, if i'm not wrong Unarmed/Fist will get more crit damage bonus from the Cheap Shots spec than from the Critical Power spec, worth checking anyway.

Bugs / Re: Razor lost his knife

« on: January 11, 2025, 03:19:23 pm »

Was it in a different area? I think every time you encounter a named NPC in a different area, its properties and inventory may be completely different.

General / Re: My thoughts on the new combat system

« on: December 31, 2024, 11:39:08 pm »

Quote from: MirddinEmris on December 31, 2024, 05:22:13 am

Quote from: ciox on December 30, 2024, 10:55:15 pm
Quote from: MirddinEmris on December 30, 2024, 09:20:54 am
1. That's the TM problem (which everyone knows is too OP even for psi), not the combat system problem.
2. No, unless you play exclusively glass cannons. Most builds will be able to survive Carnifex turn if they prepare properly.
3. So now you gonna watch enemies taking turns after every action you do. Don't see how it's any better. Game already had 500% actions speed, there never was any need for "time hack apps" for combat.
4. It's not more "immersion breaking" than anything else in turn based. Or rtwp based for that matter.

Quote
Do you really think the same devs who made Underrail and Expedition will release something unfun, or that lacks strategic depth?

Yes. If you want blind faith, go preorder some AAA crap. Or join a cult.
Abilities like Bullet Time can also be really OP in combination with a long player turn, so it's really not just TM.
And enemies will definitely not be taking turns, they will all move at once, which would be a massive improvement in speed. It would also lead to some funny moments where say 20 Expedition locusts all spit at once and instagib you, but that just comes with the territory.

Bullet time is ok and not really too OP. It affects single target shots from a pistol after all. So yeah, it's mostly psi that had a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7PdkJTBTo in this one breh (Eidein) didn't even need Temporal Contraction, he had like 35 AP left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaVeva0O54 in this breh (Paposik) only used like 5 AP from Temporal Contraction

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